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TF2 Spreadsheet Scandal

Discussion in 'Discussion Archive' started by Duskfall -a^DF, Aug 28, 2012.

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  1. Moose M.D

    Moose M.D New User

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    Im talking about Luigi's and Jiggly's. If you have ever been on these servers you would agree, every body on a trading server that does not actively look for monetary transactions too. Lol and please instead of trying to insult me right away, try to provide some counter claim next time...
  2. Sjru

    Sjru Retired Staff

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    SteamRep Admin:
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    So the sheet will be taken down or something?

    Or nothing will happen at all and everyone will be living their lifes?
  3. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    hmm, I dont think he will take it down, way too lucrative for 'm. We certainly wont do any of the other actions to force that.
  4. Scooty Puff Jr.

    Scooty Puff Jr. New User

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    Well, I am head admin on luigis and I can assure you that we try as hard as possible to prevent and shark and scams that happen on the server. About the SR plugin on it, I have asked luigi to add the plugin, in which he just keeps replying that he will get around to it soon, but it's hard for that when he has sole access and he basically quit tf2 so us admins have to work extra hard to prevent such things but also make it a fun server to be on.
  5. The Sandvich Delivery Guy

    The Sandvich Delivery Guy New User

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    Wow. The arguments in this thread are entertaining. On subject, considering I've rad all the posts except the walls of useless text, this spreadsheet buy seems like an attention-whoring a✿✿✿✿✿✿. I'm shocked that he's not banned by Valve. (Well, not with the research I've bothered to do.)
  6. MrSyn

    MrSyn New User

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    I've never really agreed with how the website in question works. The idea of the admin having direct power to manipulate prices as they pleases discourages me from using their service. I also find it hard to believe that they use credible sources for the prices. I would much prefer to see an automated website which monitors steam trades, and then bases the price on the average or whatever. Of course that method would still pose issues, I doubt trades can even be monitored.
  7. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    There is a plugin going around that can monitor trades, and export them, but that is server side, and will only see items received by players on that server. So if they trade via steam friends, the server only sees the items they received, not what they gave to the person not on the server.
    it also doesn't see of course paypal amounts etc.

    Then monitoring item trading is pretty much useless. The only real use I see is monitoring spycrab trades, but most comm just have rules that thats only with Admin MM.
  8. gukingofheart

    gukingofheart New User

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    Here's the main issue with the spreadsheet...it's a guide!
    Just because one person sold a weapon for 8 keys does not mean he should price it as that.

    The admin just needs to do one thing, and one thing only. Just keep a log!
    If he's truly adjusting the prices based off of average sales, then provide links. If you have evidence to back up your prices there will be no problem.
    No defending is required and noone can blame you for your pricing.
  9. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    tbh, thats a bit far stretched. keeping links to places he would check would way more "gimmicking" the pricelist then ever.

    but the whole thing is /care for me.
  10. TF2Spreadsheet

    TF2Spreadsheet New User

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    This long-form response is coming late for a few reasons. One is because I had incorrectly assumed that logic and an honest examination at this accuser's statements and "evidence" would prove that, while I've made mistakes, willfully manipulating prices on the TF2 Spreadsheet is not one of them. Secondly, the accuser's flawed and ever-growing explanation has become even more exaggerated and distorted over time and needs to be set straight. Third, tf2items.com has deleted backpack information that could have validated my version of the timeline below. Inflammatory Steam User Forums comments posted by "TF2 ItemsEditor" were also deleted. Even if you've already come to your conclusion on this issue, take another look.

    Here is what has occurred. An accuser took some posts I've made in the past from Steam User Forums and paired them with his distortions, exaggerations and lies regarding a single recent trade. This was all in an underlying effort to smear my site: the TF2 Spreadsheet. Let me be clear about the Steam User Forums posts: using multiple accounts was not right, anonymously pointing out that a competitor had a lack of experience was not right, bumping my own posts was not right, nor was the apparent 2 times back in early 2011 I opened with 'valid' bids on my own items (all around a key in value each). All of which I apologize for and have not done since (I don't trade items for profit anymore).

    However, the accuser has reached for literally anything from the past to attack my credibility. The majority of his examples, including the SPUF posts, come from before the popular and current version of the TF2 Spreadsheet. My talking about common perceptions of series 1 crates by citing often-quoted sources is a really good example. He has examined my word use to a bizarre level, while nothing I said was untrue. Keeping a wall between my trading account and the TF2 Spreadsheet Admin account were also legitimate and necessary. This was to keep outside influence on sheet prices. I still require anonymity from my contributors and believe it keeps outside influence outside. My lengthy and clean trading rep, all from real users, was earned and represented thousands of fair trades between a willing buyer and seller - there was no scamming.

    Back to the main issue: his claim that I willfully manipulated a price on the sheet to profit. Examine carefully his "evidence" on the Silver Botkiller Medi Gun trade and in particular: the timing. His only real evidence of time on any of his screenshots are from my site, which are accurate. What he lies about and distorts are nearly everything else but primarily: the timing on the tf2outpost selling threads for the Silver Botkiller Medi Gun, and the timing of my sale of the item in relation to when I updated the TF2 Spreadsheet.

    A quick re-cap. On the morning of August 19th the Spreadsheet had no prices for the new Gold/Silver Botkiller items. I was compiling prices for them and saw a Silver Medi Gun for sale at the lowest "quicksell" price of 9 keys on tf2outpost, I offered the seller 8, he agreed and we traded. Purchasing this item while the sheet had no price for the item was a mistake. It hadn't happened previously and I should have waited the 30 minutes until after I updated the price. Not malicious but my thinking was that I saw what was a very low price and wanted to buy the medi gun quickly. Overall a dumb thing to do. (to remove any possibility of accusations again, I no longer trade actively).

    Now take a look at the accuser's list of tf2outpost selling threads below he claims are his pricing evidence for the Silver Medi Gun. It is impossible to determine the timing and original prices listed which some were clearly changed and written over. It is also impossible to determine if this is even a complete 'for sale' list, there is no timestamped screenshot of his "search" for this item. Screenshots he has pasted into an archive file also show no evidence of any timing and don't even include the full detail of each thread. The accuser's list is stacked to support his thesis, is incomplete (not complete and only sellers) and only from tf2outpost. While he screenshots and notes the time on the spreadsheet, he only provides links to these long-closed tf2outpost threads that were written-over and altered many times.

    Buyout prices of Strange Botkiller Medigun before Spreadsheet intervention
    5 Keys - Sold @ Unknown price
    9 Keys - Sold @ 8 Keys
    12 keys - Sold @ Unknown price
    'Some Keys' - Sold @ Unknown price
    10 Keys - Not sold
    Buds (26 Keys) - Not sold
    TS Bills (10 Keys) - Not sold
    Offer 7-10 Keys - Not sold

    These threads above were compiled by the accuser after I had bought the Medi Gun and updated the TF2 Spreadsheet price, not before as he claims. His claim that the market price was far under the price I updated on the TF2 Spreadsheet is backed up by distorted 'evidence' and based on his false timeline. He provides no timestamps for his evidence, only vague talk of falling prices that proves nothing. He says the sellers cut their prices: maybe but when did they cut their prices in relation to when I updated the spreadsheet is what is key. His 'proof' shows nothing about the time in question, rather what has happened over the subsequent days, weeks and months. Only what I posted on the spreadsheet is timestamped and documented. Prices on all the botkiller items have dropped dramatically and quickly off their initial high prices (Gold, Silver, Diamond, Carbonado, Blood and Rust). Merely stating that prices dropped isn't enough, he has to prove timing.

    These prices the accuser has posted above are not what I witnessed when examining sources for prices. When I am determining prices, I check manysources and get feedback from my contributors, tf2outpost being only one. There are many others such as Tf2tp, SourceOp, Steam, reddit tf2trade and many other tf2-specific forums, as well as the many online trade servers. I gather my own information and feedback from my contributors and put together a snapshot of where prices are at the time. (We had just started phasing in a proprietary trade-scanning software that uses the Steam API to give us actual prices of trades. However, at the time the items were new and these actual trades were only trickling through.)

    That day of the 19th the prices I posted for the Silver Botkiller Scattergun (10-14 keys), Rocket Launcher (10-14 keys), Medi-gun (10-14 keys) and Sniper Rifle (12-16 keys) all had asking prices at premiums over the other classes items. This followed logically to the previous most-comparable set, the Strange Festive items. On multiple sites, forums and trade servers I observed asking prices that appeared to have an average of 10-14 keys. The lowest available at that moment was the one in question at 9 keys, most in the middle range from 10-14 keys and as high as 26 keys (earbuds' price at the time). I have been trading since it was launched by Valve and know when I see a "quicksell" item. Otherwise I wouldn't have bought the Silver Medi Gun for a cheap price at that moment in time of 9 (8 in the end) keys.

    Then the accuser falsely claims that I sold the Medi Gun before updating the sheet to a lower price of 9-10 keys on Monday, August 20th (I eventually sold it for 10 keys following the TF2 spreadsheet update). Again, he has no actual evidence that proves his claim of timing. His evidence from a competitor's website has no indication of time (not that it would be trustworthy anyway since they are direct competition), nor does his tf2outpost.com link shed any light on timing. Both follow:
    http://imgur.com/4khUWhttp://www.tf2outpost.com/item/1045336471

    When updating the sheet on the 20th I was thinking that these prices were coming down fast and yet I updated the Spreadsheet anyways - believing that the sheet's accuracy is always more important. Mondays are typically a trough in prices since fewer players are active and the volume dies down considerably from weekends. After I updated the price on the sheet to 9-10 keys, a buyer took my price of 10 keys and the item was sold.

    On top of all this, Tf2items.com has since deleted a full month of my backpack history (from the 19th of July to August 21st) around the date of this trade that could have supported my version of the sale of the item. They also deleted 2 full months of history from my TF2 Spreadsheet Admin's account (insert image) although it is not clear why. Also, following these accusations being publicized on reddit, I questioned Drunken Fool (who is a Valve employee, Steam User Forums moderator as well as owner of Tf2items.com) about previous posts by a Steam User Forums user named "TF2 ItemsEditor". The comments in question were inflammatory and conspiracy-laden about my site, TF2 Spreadsheet. All posts by "TF2 ItemsEditor" on TF2-Trading have since been deleted. All his other posts to other subforums remain intact as of this writing.

    My backpack with the deleted month of data, note dates at bottom:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/90145720@N07/8191036921/

    My Admin's account with over a month of deleted data, note dates at bottom:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/90145720@N07/8192123438/


    (note: following this accusation and days after the trades in question, I made my backpacks private. There would be no data from backpack sites approximately 3-4 days after this incident. The idea was that I didn't want any more false accusations related to items in my inventory since having them open was clearly no protection. However, they were never private before this and historical data from Tf2items.com should be complete going back to the beginning for each account.)

    Big picture: Let logic and a skeptical examination of all evidence be the guide. The fact remains that I give away far more to my visitors in freebies and prizes nearly every day than I made on this single trade. If what this accuser has claimed were all true, it would follow that he should have witnessed dozens of similar trades over the long period of time he was watching my accounts. Surely there should be solid, real evidence of a methodical and long history if his accusation was true. It has been nearly 3 months since these false allegations came to light, surely there should be others who come forward with solid proof as well. There is none. There is none because this was a single trade where the accuser cooked the books so that he could smear and damage the reputation of my site.

    I understand that I have critics, that is ok and I encourage honest feedback. However, this accuser took it to a whole new level by creating false 'evidence' to smear both my and my site's reputation. I would recommend that any other accusations this person has made towards other Steam users be re-examined with much more scrutiny. I would also recommend another reddit administrator, not previously involved, take a closer look at the 'evidence' put forward from this accuser and revisit the unjust "scammer" label attached to my accounts.
  11. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    Its been 2 months, if any, you should have fought this head on right away. Without doing shady stuff like changing/editing posts on reddit for things got refuted etc. I'll ask the admin that was to audit it about it, but thats about it... for your appeal lies at Reddit.
  12. TF2Spreadsheet

    TF2Spreadsheet New User

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    I did respond right away over the course of days, the thread was closed and I believed this issue here was done. Someone recently sent the two new threads from here. Not sure what you mean that I changed/edited a reddit post. I replied that my trading account and spreadsheet admin account were not the same person, a lie, intended to allow trading without connection to the sheet.

    All I want here is an honest look at this accuser's manufactured 'evidence' as I go into length above.
  13. Iris Heart

    Iris Heart New User

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    Some people are just insane. The spreadsheet's prices may be leaning towards the high side a lot of the time, but it's just a useful tool to get an idea of how much something is worth, especially if you compare the prices to backpack.tf's.

    Frankly I don't care if you manipulate the prices to your advantage or not. Imo, this whole scandal is stupid.

    Do what you want, it's not my business. The spreadsheet's just a damn useful tool.
  14. [Gent] Jeremy

    [Gent] Jeremy New User

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    Things could have been okay if you hadn't started lying about which accounts you controlled on Reddit. Doing that just, in the minds of many, secured the spreadsheet as untrustworthy. That and Drunken F00l confirming that many users who attacked other sites and promoted your own trades were all your alts on SPUF
    mittensthekitten likes this.
  15. The Oatmeal

    The Oatmeal New User

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    You want people to trust you and believe you are legitimate but still you hide behind a hidden profile. If you want credibility you shouldn't be trying so hard to hide your identity.
    mittensthekitten likes this.
  16. KosToLoM

    KosToLoM New User

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    This site is working for 2 ways:

    + People knows around price for 80% of cheap/low-tier items.
    - Really wrong situation with re-selling items by admins of this site and up/down prices.

    So it's 50/50. But 75-80% of this prices is really rightly. Other 20-25% is rare/changing in price items and we can easy check outpost/tf2tp/etc for know price for this items.

    Sad situation with admins, yes.
  17. LeGenD`RaGe

    LeGenD`RaGe New User

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    I love how people keep hating on the spreadsheet and don't see that a lot of prices are heavily manipulated by some guys of tf2pricecheck which they blindly follow, when in fact the sheet is accurate 99% of the time.
    TF2 traders, they just keep getting dumber each day.
  18. LuckyNineTwo

    LuckyNineTwo New User

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    The spreadsheet is a great thing. I haven't been scammed since I found it because I know the prices and now know where to find them. I don't have to waste my time getting price checks on krappy TF2 trade servers full of kids who are under the age of 15.

    Whether you like it or not the spreadsheet has a purpose.

    (I'm not coming back so don't bother replying to this post)
  19. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    the spreadcheat is nice for those looking for low range prices, to get a indication in what price range the item is... don't expect them to be accurate.
  20. Sjru

    Sjru Retired Staff

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    SteamRep Admin:
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    FYI I don't think it's really ok to vouch users into this thread and into the reddit thread
    tf2spreadsheet.blogspot.com/2012/11/spreadsheet-accusers-evidence-examined.html

    Isn't that a drama bait?
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