Spycrabbing with marked scammers.... Allowed or Not?

This has never actually been officially addressed by SteamREP. I remember in the past when the Steam Community Beta Group started, I asked Helen if it was allowed and she said something along the lines of 'It doesn't matter who you crab with.' This was not an official SteamREP testimony, obviously, it was just something I asked in passing.

So here I am. What do you guys think? Is it wrong to spycrab a scammer? You are not trading with them or brokering their items. It's just a 50/50 gamble like you would do with any other user. I feel it does not support their scamming.

Does such an action warrant a caution/scammer tag? If it does, would this mean that every user would have to do a background check on every account they crab (even if those crabs are to be middlemanned by an admin). I know that admins almost never do background checks on accounts who are crabbing, until someone brings up a suggestion that one may be a scammer alt.

I have never heard of a situation where someone has been marked or even cautioned for crabbing with a scammer, but just because I haven't seen it happen, doesn't mean it's allowed.

Let me know what you guys think. Should spycrab gambling with a marked scammer be put on the same level as trading with or brokering for a scammer?

I honestly am not sure, I've gotten this question and the question of whether you're allowed to take gifts from scammer friends if they're quitting or etc too.

I would honestly be interested in seeing the policy on this.

I'de say the same rules should apply as trading with one.
If you are crabbing high tier items (bills +), it's up to you to check out who you crab with.
I always check out ppl crabbing unusuals when I MM (even if tagged persons are banned from GoV servers, could always be an obvious alt)

Why do you feel that way, though? If I beat a marked scammer in a crab, then I make the profit and he loses his stuff. A crab can be seen as something entirely different from a trade. A gamble is a gamble, no matter how big the size. Whether you crab 1 rec or 1 bud, you still will get marked for running. Also, the point of bills as a standard for high value trade, is because new players tend not to have bills, or look up scammers. If someone is crabbing, most likely they have been a part of the community long enough to know about SteamREP and scammers.

I would think if it's illegal to crab a scammer, it would have to be any crab, period.

Use a server with SR Plugin, problem solved!

A spycrab or gamble is a trade agreement based on a random outcome. So same rules apply.

That sounds more than reasonable to me, I appreciate the quick responses!

Just to add (since I've done tons of spycrabs), this is a pretty stupid question in the first place.
Think about it a marked scammer is someone who is to be not trusted in trading or anything to do with items.
So if they are untrusted surely you should not gamble against them, even if you have a middleman. It's like flipping a coin for money, and the person you are betting has stolen there money from a bank and also has a loaded weapon on them.
In this situation you should use common sense.

It is not a stupid question at all. This is information that I'm sure a lot of people would like to know.

What im trying to say is that people need to use common sense sometimes, around subjects like this.

Sadly that is a rare commodity, or SR would not have such a constant deluge of reports

While that may be true, asking a question to be certain of something and to know where the lines are drawn is not stupid.

Well guess what, I was under the impression, crabbing with scammers was absolutely OK.

Obviously, I was mistaken, it's not as "common sense" as you would think. I have a lot of friends, who I use to spycrab with who are now marked, (not naming names). I asked what was more than a reasonable question... If it were common sense not to crab with scammers, why is it that in the past 6 months, I've seen many alt accounts go onto MCT, TF2-T with unusuals and successfully crab them for a week(s), before they get caught and banned/marked as an alt. If it were common sense, both Venganza and Eoj Nawoh (who commented on this thread, hence my reference to them) would be marked right now for middlemanning for an *obvious* scammer alt in a crab. Myself and many other crabbers would also be marked scammers for crabbing against these alts.

Also, if it were common sense, why has there never been a scammer report for one crabbing with a scammer (which I know for a fact occurs) but there are thousands for trading with scammers...

I asked a question which has never officially been addressed by SteamREP, anywhere on the forums. Your reply was indisputably that of troll. I'd like to refer you here, http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/shitposting-on-the-forums.20703/ and conclude my message by kindly asking you to please refrain from commenting on this thread again.

Absolutely true, this question deserved to be asked and cleared up. It is most certainly something people need to be mindful of.

ForeSP, I am sure you (and others) have little to worry about.

Those who engage in crabs on a regular basis, and Admins who MM them, look for suspicious activity and should check further when there appears to be cause. There are probably many instances where crabbers and Admins have had dealings with players who would be obvious alts upon close inspection. In fact I have reported a few over the past few months to SR, including one or two that I conducted crab MM for.

As with everything, as I understand it, SR looks at such things on merit with particular attention to patterns of behavior and collusion etc. In other words, I would be guessing that as usual, SR does not hand out tags like confetti and that the usual processes would take place before action was taken in this kind of scenario.

Here is where I have a dilemma with this whole situation that I think needs to still be addressed. Although you feel that it makes sense not to crab with scammers, I think that technically it should not be illegal but rather frowned upon greatly. And for sites that demand large trades occur with admin, it should be the admins' responsibility to check the contestants up front, especially in communities associated with SR. However, tags should not be handed out on this matter. Here is why:

A spycrab is a contest in which you "gamble" or "play" for fun and the hope of winning a prize. You can not manipulate the outcome (not to date anyways, but you never know) therefore no "scam" can occur if a middleman is involved. That being said, many lotteries that are held in many various ways (I refer to a crab as a lottery because in fact that is what essentially it is) are conducted WITHOUT ANY background checks whatsoever. It is very impractical to do so, primarily referring to in-game lotteries such as spy-crabbing. Although it is a good practice to check the background of ANYONE you crab with on big ticket items, it is sometimes difficult ( keep in mind that trading still occurs and constantly trading with a scammer yields you a tag). On servers where big ticket items are crabbed it is generally REQUIRED that an admin be involved in brokering the crab. These sites (not all but most) are affiliated with steamrep and therefore the admins must be made to check steamrep of each player when taking the items into the trade window before the crab begins. This SHOULD eliminate nearly ALL spycrabbing "laundering" that occurs on legitimate servers where big ticket items get crabbed (unless its small crabs like a key, a ref, or a craft hat each time etc).

I understand the argument that the scammers are using scammed items but ultimately you can not say "you are not allowed to communicate or play with a scammer on a random game server" as it is just not possible to expect someone to check every member they communicate with when people jump servers so often and so randomly. Many people who frequent trade servers in-game only will never have a clue what steamrep is as they may not trade on websites (I hated website trading for half a year as I preferred to both play AND trade (shoot and kill instead of just browse trades on a static website). So unless you make it part of the rules on the game server to state that any big ticket items crabbed must pass through steamrep protocols and state how these protocols are to be followed, it is really not fair to punish an in-game only trader (there are many out there who trade in big ticket items).

For example: I have only discovered about website trading and steamrep long after I did my first bills hat crab. Remember, every trader out there values items differently. Some value scraps greatly while others look at buds as not such a big loss if taken off their hands. To me the value of items is significantly less then most since I can drop $100 on a single night out of my friends and if compared that is all I lost. One night out with the friends. So for some players crabbing bills hats or buds (although many say WHOA and WOW, it is just a quick fix for a rush that means nothing major to them) is not a a big deal and they do it without wondering "does this person have stolen items and is trying to launder them" etc. . I think ultimately when it comes to something which is not directly related to trading (you can argue that this is trading all you want but look at the point of view of a crabber, it really isn't), a person should not be tagged unless there is BLATANT attempt to launder stolen items (someone constantly crabbing only with scammers on totally random servers which do not normally cater to large ticket item crabs such as unusual hat trade servers).

Should a report be filed in suspicion of such actions where it is strongly believed to be a launder attempt of some sort (there are COUNTLESS easier ways to launder items from one account to another in a public forum), absolutely. Steamrep will investigate and determine just how likely this is to be the case and if anything they will at least locate some more alts and hired designated launderers.

Should the person be held liable without at least being formally warned of their actions and confronted (We are not talking about crabbing a ref or a craft hat with a scammer once or twice if you are a known regular crabber), no they should not.

I can go on and on about this but I will let you guys have a say before I drag on any more (like most of my usual lengthy posts).

Dronefly, re-read the posts in this thread, all your questions have been addressed, and Mattie's post is very clear.

Yes, but I still choose to exercise my right to speak on behalf of people who disagree with SRs point of view. Ultimately that is what this general discussion section of SR is for. To question and challenge current beliefs, practices and rules. I am not demanding a change but rather trying to exercise an open discussion on this matter. And I made sure to read ALL the posts before responding.

That still requires you to actually trade the marked user in question therefore falling under trading with a scammer policy.
Secondly, it should be ALL parties involved to check the SR (Especially on a no SR plugin server) and not just the admins as you are the one gambling so you can't just take no responsibility for said action.

Let me quote myself

Beats me why anyone would use any trade or unusual server that does not use SR Plugin. VOTE WITH YOUR FEET PEOPLE! Problem solved