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Sharking?

Discussion in 'SteamRep General Discussion' started by SirTyler, Apr 5, 2014.

  1. SirTyler

    SirTyler New User

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    Since Steam Rep only deals with Scamming, what should be done with Sharking then? I understand it is more of a gray area in trading but it should still be looked at and people should still have a way to see who has done it or attempted to, if not SteamRep then where?

    This is just my opinion and I am looking for a discussion on it, thats why I had posted it here rather than attempt to get it past in the Scam Reports. So what is everyones thoughs on how this should be delt with?
  2. gukingofheart

    gukingofheart New User

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    Outpost will ban sharkers.
    They have a 10% - 20% rule, depending on the newbie's playtime.
  3. Chaos

    Chaos Retired Staff

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    Communities can and do ban sharks based on whatever criteria they want. The problem is that every time we've discussed it, we've never been able to come to a concencus on criteria for almost every aspect of it.

    Here are some things to consider:

    • For any statement or ban to mean anything, you must have a high standard of evidence/proof. Without substance to back it up, it's empty and worthless.
    • To set a percentage of what is and isn't ok, you have to define an actual value of an item. Since there is no 100% agreed value of any item and values of items fluctuate too frequently it's impossible to uphold a percentage of a number that cannot be defined.
    • Steamrep and most communities under the umbrella (of sorts) do not want to dictate values. People are free to sell their items and set their own values and nobody wants to get in the way of that. The price lists that are out there are only there as guides to help people avoid feeling ripped off.
    It's not as simple as you might think. There are so many things to consider and the points I presented above are only brief overviews of some of the problems with preventing sharks through some sort of list or database.

    IF you're head of a community though, you can ban from your server or service for whatever reason you like. If someone sharks, lowballs or even looks at you the wrong way. SteamREP doesn't tag those bans though since they aren't scams.

    TL:DR - SteamREP isn't banning sharks. Communities can though.
    NinjaNick and ForteSP like this.
  4. USAFMike

    USAFMike New User

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    Chaos gave a pretty good explanation, as always.


    For me, I honestly wish extreme cases of sharking (highly recognized hats that are obviously worth a lot like TCs, Crone's, etc for $20 games) lead to a mark on SteamRep, like a caution tag. Because sharking is just a coward way to scam someone. And since there's no mark or anything, it feels like the act is a get-out-of-jail-free card. Yes, communities can ban sharkers as they see fit, but it isn't as often as some communities don't accept sharking reports. It's true most cases that are brought forth are just the case of buyer's remorse, but those highly desirable hats going for a steam game or a bunch random hats/weapons, that's horrible. Sharking is a clear scam in my opinion. A scam is a dishonest scheme. Sharks add newbies, aren't honest about their offer and aren't honest with the person their trading with. They use that ignorance to take advantage of someone. Pisses me off.
  5. Ninja Otter With A Taco

    Ninja Otter With A Taco Retired Staff

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    Eh I see what you're getting at, and I definately agree that sharking someone for really high priced stuff (i.e. high tier unusuals) should warrant a caution tag (at the very least) but with most things I'd say people shouldn't get banned. You'd need to remember that not everyone trades and some people might just want weapons or a few hats to make their classes look nice. You cant ruin someones reputation for ripping someone off, because if you did nobody would have a good reputation.
  6. USAFMike

    USAFMike New User

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    I personally have no sympathy for players the intentionally go out and seek other players to take advantage of so they can make a profit. If you go out and do that, that should affect your reputation. Choosing to not acknowledge that for reputation is just dishonesty.
  7. NinjaNick

    NinjaNick New User

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    We all have our own opinions on Sharking, I whole hardily believe if a new player loses a more valued item to a much lesser valued item it is the new players fault. Sure it's a jerk move by the experienced trader but nonetheless is the new traders problem. If both sides at the time of the trade being completed are happy, what's the issue?
    Amir likes this.
  8. Amir

    Amir New User

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    It's free trade. If there are people out there who, either through idleness or pure ignorance, cannot be bothered to even check the value of what they are trading, then it's their hard luck, and their fault alone. It's the one true place where a line must be drawn between dishonesty and personal responsibility.
  9. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    No, this is not correct. First of all there is the age considerations. A lot of the targeted players are kids that really do not know value, and have not yet learned from their parents what value is, how one can look up value for anything online. Most of those aren't even aware of sites like bp.tf, etc. Those kids are used to low value "exchanges" of collecting sport cards etc, and are not aware that there are very high value items within steam trading. I do not know the legalities of it, but I'm sure that in most western countries such is forbidden, and reversible/punishable by law.
    Sure if the person trading is 18 or w/e, then that person should have known better. But I cannot blame a 12 year old for falling for such and only later find out bout it.
    And yeah, there is a grey shaded area in between.

    And personally I'd advice those that have been sharked to report the profile that sharked them to Valve via the on profile button.

    So, no, I cannot agree with you guys. Unfortunately when we researched if we would/could ban for it, we came upon the obstacles Chaos above described:
    - Lack of evidence on the trade agreement / sentiment of the trading.
    - We do not want to pose price "limits", its not our place, and never will be. Any entity can trade for items as they value them. And if we would use limits, what should these be? Any more deviation then what? 10%? 20%? 30%? 50%?
    - "Buyer's remorse" is a pretty close description of it from Valve, and mostly applies. But that doesn't mean valve doesn't care.

    In the end it means that a trader often days or weeks after they traded for it finds out that what they traded was worth way more then what they got, and by then the sharker is gone, no screenshots of the chat. Only thing that remains is a trade history screenshot and a story. We cannot judge based on that.

    Hence we point to communities that will ban for it, like Outpost, HG, etc. And the advice to report the profile with the profile report button on top right.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  10. NinjaNick

    NinjaNick New User

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    I understand your point. When I made that comment I may have sounded like I support Sharking, and I apologize for that since my opinion is the complete opposite. As mentioned before Sharking is the act of lying about the prices of an item to further gain profit. What I meant was, if the trader losing the more valuable item never asked about prices than it's their fault. If someone is selling a Team Captain and I offer 2 ref and they accept, it's not my fault they never bothered to ask me the price, which I would have told them. I'm guessing you still disagree with my opinion but that's aside from the point, I just wanted to correct my statement from before.
  11. gukingofheart

    gukingofheart New User

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    How can you ask for a price when you don't even realize there are different prices in the first place?
    Also, you don't have to lie to shark.. you can say nothing and it's still sharking.
    The only way you can do big amounts fairly, is if they completely understand price values and money value and willingly take the big loss.
  12. ForteSP

    ForteSP New User

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    Oh boy another sharking topic.
  13. SirTyler

    SirTyler New User

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    Well what had inspired this was something I have been doing for about a week now, Ive been going on Valve Servers with nothing but a Gibus, Pyrovision, and Earbuds on. People have seen my buds, sent me a trade request, and then attempt to shark me. While I am not new to trading I simply play along till I get enough evidience that shows they were attempt to shark me and were fully aware of what they were doing. I understand that certain things are not easy to measure as "Was this a shark?" but when you have trades such as earbuds or unusuals that are known to be worth more than what is offered (one guy had attempted to trade my buds for a hat and vintage weapon) its clear that something needs to be done about them. The best solution in my opinion would be a simple Caution tag when this has occured or occurs more than once for the person.
  14. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    oh, couple points not told:
    - Effect of such. They just will use some alt account, and go only on game servers... plugin won't ban them for most non-trade servers won't have our plugin.
    - Players won't look them up, for they aren't familiar with SteamRep.

    So effect would be quite minimal, only to appease the feeling to have done some about them.

    I rather have some actions that could limit them... but they don't need high value accounts to shark. So the effect is limited.
  15. NinjaNick

    NinjaNick New User

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    Not true, many, many community members including myself believe that sharking only occurs when a trader lies about the price of a item.
    Xenophobia likes this.
  16. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    Omitting or not telling something is often also considered a lie. They then imply by offering their crappy s✿✿✿ that its equal in worth. So there is no excuse there.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  17. gukingofheart

    gukingofheart New User

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    Yep, their using icons to lie instead of text.
    I should of rephrased my original statement.