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Manipulating prices via Outpost: Scamming?

Discussion in 'Discussion Archive' started by Dave the Manly, Jul 25, 2012.

  1. Dave the Manly

    Dave the Manly New User

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    It was brought up on another forum that all it takes is a group of friends on Outpost to change the price of an item. I figure that makes enough sense. Mike makes a trade lowballing/highballing an item, Mike's friend Carl posts that he'll take it, then Steve sees this and says to himself "Huh! People are getting these things this cheap, well that means I can too!"

    And thus begins a price change. What's SR's take on this? Should any action be taken against people using these methods?
  2. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    I wouldn't single out Outpost here as its very wide spread on other places but the biggest manipulating source and culprit to controlling the so called "Trading market" is that damn spreadsheet. The guy or guys behind it are in fact manipulating the values as they see fit not because of what people say they want out of something. People follow that damn thing like the bible and its gotten a bit out of hand to where there is now too much hidden power. The site offers no transparency, you don't have a clue who this single person or persons are which is bad.

    Example: Keys went to 2.55+ over night yet people for a good 3-4 weeks were still unloading them and asking 2.33-2.44 sometimes lower than 2.33 but then that amount got changed on the "spreadsheet" so people started quoting or living by it thus the value was manipulated. I don't buy this crap they post on the page about they monitor this that and the other for making decisions for values.

    I'll also suggest - HIGHLY SUGGEST that if you do insist on using it to only use it as a guide line and a bad one at that - also use this link below NOT the blogsspot or whatever they have or else you feed ad revenue generated pockets for this insanity.

    https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub...=0AnM9vQU7XgF9dFM2cldGZlhweWFEUURQU2pmOGJVMlE
  3. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    There will always be people who ask too much for an item on Outpost (OP), and there will always be those who offer pennies, and there will be fake bidders and indeed collusion in some cases.

    Remember however that on OP everything is visible, and there is an onus upon buyers to research and make valued judgments as to the purchasing decisions. If you ask 100 buds for a 10 bud hat, you simply won't find a buyer. I should note that in terms of "scammers" I have seen Admins such as Pretender take rapid action action fraudulent trades and in my opinion OP does a decent job of moderating and keeping things in check to the best of its ability.

    It seems to me that SR is not the sort of entity able to do what you suggest, one thing SR cannot be is the "trade police", since on a public and visible site no intermediary is or should be needed to intervene in purchasing decisions in terms of price paid.

    --------------

    As for the "spreadsheet" in terms of normal items, I often hear many wild and varied claims and some of them quite absurd. Let me give you my perspective for what it is worth.

    I am among other things, Gamers United Network Admin, with special responsibility for Trade as Team Leader. An important part of my job is to ensure that trading is carried out safely and to protect the kids on our servers, and while the spreadsheet is most certainly not a bible, it is an essential tool for vast majority of traders. I always tell our users that it is a guide only, that a common item such an S. Bonesaw will generally sell under spread, while an S. Medigun will sell at spread or over.

    As for you claims of manipulation, the only time I know there was manipulation, was the group who got together and posted false info regarding the B.M.O.C and Ebenezar, and it was OP and Spreadsheet who were hoodwinked.

    I am on TF2 100+ hours a week, much of it on trade, and generally speaking the price fluctuations I see on spreadsheet, mirror real world demand for items on our servers, for example I knew without question the S. Degreaser would jump in price since I saw a lot of people trying to buy and no one selling.

    Is the spreadsheet perfect? I would say no, nor could it be. It is a Godsend for most traders? Absolutely without question from my perspective as Admin who cares about my users.

    Rather than moan about a tool which for whatever flaw(s) it might have, is a major benefit for the vast majority, it would perhaps be more productive to create a better system, until then I am very happy to see a kid check spread and see his Vintage Ullapool is worth more than the scrap or two someone just tried to grab it off him for.
    Mattie! likes this.
  4. Ben

    Ben New User

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    I think the spreadshit combined with all these fake offers is a problem.
    demanrisu and Xel'Naga like this.
  5. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    That is just it, there shouldn't even be a spreadsheet or any other document saying "prices" of items. The concept here that Valve created was TRADING not Buying/Selling and it is for that reason I think the spreadsheet should disappear or at the very least those that control it show themselves and not be so secret.
    As for the moaning comment... well why in the hell would I want to complain about something then create an alternative when the complaint or problem I have with it is the purpose for which it serves. If person A feels they wish to TRADE a Refined metal to person B to obtain a Mann Co key then so be it as long as both parties are ok with it then the setup for which it was designed has served its purpose without being manipulated by - what Ben called it "spreadshit".
  6. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    Valve and most other game companies out there despise the Gold Sellers of this world too, sadly there is precious little they can do about it. The fact is that TF2 items are not digital irrelevance but have real world value. I could sell my Purple Modest for $300 without any fuss at all.

    It is fine and dandy for you, who are perhaps a seasoned trader to be nonchalant about trading whatsoever you will for whatsoever you want, however if you were on the front line as I am, Admin on a network with 5000 slots worldwide and a zillion kids who know precious little in most cases, you would be thankful there is some resource that gives them a basic guide as to relative values of things.

    Remember TF2 items are subjectively valued by us the playerbase largely based on rarity and price differentials can be dramatic, I am eternally grateful the kids I look out for can quickly judge if their Vintage Tossle Cap is really worth trading for a spy token.

    Remember too, if you don't give a hoot about a spreadsheet for normal items, don't use it, but do not moan if others choose to, and if you think you can do better, go ahead and design a better one. I honestly do not care who puts the damn together, I have more experience with daily supply and demand than a great many people, since often I am 12 hours a day on trade (230+- hours a fortnight) and I see the demand for items reflected in spread almost invariably (except that time when everyone got conned during the B.M.O.C debacle).

    I honestly do not pay any heed to the conspiracy theories that abound, I am happy there is some basic guide that newer traders can use to at least gauge relative worth, so flawed or not, it serves a very good purpose in my opinion.
  7. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    Our problem lies that its adverting itself as "the" instead of telling the ppl to take it with a grain of salt on their page. Any criticizing note to them was removed when I made them.

    I've often fantasized on a joint-op between trading site's to have a +/- feed like from the stock markets from recent trades on TF2TP/TF2OP and other like sources, with averages/stats etc. as that can be fully automated, and from a load of sources, it can be indifferent of influences (ofc some mobbing is always possible, but thats in real life stock market too).
  8. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    Does everything you reply to gotta be so long and drawn out with so many big words to support an opinion?
  9. dragonrabbit

    dragonrabbit New User

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    Tbh - I'd have to agree with VenGanZa completely - If someone decides to buy a key from the store to try and uncrate a strange rocket launcher and uncrates TC - wouldn't you say it's better that he sees something on a website saying how an unusual like that can go for hundreds of $ rather than him have it sharked off him for 10 weapons and a couple of hats (say) (or - to keep this more relevant to spreadsheet - if he hopes to uncrate an eyelander and get s strange grenade, and then trades the grenade launcher for 10 weapons. - if he did this 10 times - he's losing real value, $25 or more.) While people's complete and utter obedience to the spreadsheet can get irritating for traders who know the more accurate pricing, it's better to save them the money they could lose, than for them to lose out on a few trades)
    Tl;dr - agree with venganza - people could lose out on $$$ if there weren't sites like the spreadsheet. - Though of course that said you've got to ask yourslef - would the people who don't know much about trading ever actually sell stuff for cash... meh.
    Sorry that my organising of words is terrible ^^ :p
  10. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    Off-topic but I have a go at it:
    The answer is no it doesn't, but it often is...

    On-topic:
    My regular spiel on my trader servers is: The spreadsheet is not a bible, it is a useful guide, you might sell something like an S Bonsaw under spread because it is common as muck, while an S. Medigun is currently an easy sale at spread or over. Good idea for you newer players to use it to get a feel for prices"

    Again I repeat, it is a major asset to a great many people, and until someone comes up with a better price guide, will continue to be so no matter how many moan or come up with conspiracy theories. The fact it protects my users on Gamers UN is a major benefit to me and to the users concerned.

    * Note, I consider Unusual Price lists largely useless, but again if they help some dimwit kid realize his odd purple hat is worth more than a few scrap metal then AMEN.
  11. Ben

    Ben New User

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    I wouldn't say the spreadshit is useful, it's beginning to creep up as a major problem along with all this themed crap and widespread fake offers/offer fixing. Can't people just barter? That's the point of trading, it's a barter system, living life by a list is boring as hell.
  12. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    Ok please provide a list of this "widespread fake offer" business you mention, and I ask for substantiated details please.

    I will start you off shall I?

    There was a group who got together and faked interest and prices on B.M.O.C and Ebenezars, this was detected and removed from http://tf2spreadsheet.blogspot.com.au/ (which is the ONLY spreadsheet I am talking about).

    So, please do continue and show me clear proof of these "widespread" issues you speak of in detail.
  13. Ben

    Ben New User

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    Please stop acting like I've just slashed your tires.
    Dave the Manly likes this.
  14. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    In other words, you are one of the myriad of conspiracy theorists who sprout "widespread" this and that without a shred of supportive evidence?
  15. Mattie!

    Mattie! SteamRep Admin

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    Have you seen base64's awesome site?

    http://tf2finance.com/

    And worthy of a plug (slow unless you open in Chrome): http://stats.tf2finance.com/

    Note that almost all collectible hobbies start off barter/trade and then dedicated people start buying/selling/trading them actively. And so a price sheet or magazine or guide emerges to assist in comparing values. It happens with pretty much every collectible (baseball cards, comics, coins, stamps, antiques, art, Magic cards, etc). Really some subset of people want guidance so they have something to build on, preferably historical pricing information (which is the only real fair guidance, historical average/distribution), but there are lots of barterers who are unhappy with that because it can reduce margins and unnaturally restrict volatility. It's really the eternal struggle between those who want to buy safely and those looking for high risk/reward (i.e. lovers of order versus embracers of chaos).

    I think the reality is that there will always be price guides and people who hate them. Every profit-seeking member of the economy will be trying to affect prices to their own good. A monopolistic price guide can make that worse or, conversely, multiple reliable price guides can protect against that via competition (but may further reduce the ability to speculate).

    I think at this stage the only way for anyone to change the current situation is to have more solid price guides backed by better data, or additionally educate more and more traders to use price guides as an actual "guide" but understand that values fluctuate all the time based on availability and demand. (I don't think there is any solution under the sun that will make everyone happy.)
  16. Ben

    Ben New User

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    No, you think I'm talking about the spreadsheet whereas I'm talking about fake offers in general, I've seen many a trade like that on outpost and tf2tp etc. Plus I just can't be bothered arguing with you, it's too late to read 10 paragraphs just to get 1 point across.

    But that's the point, most of the guides are built up on very inaccurate statistics whereas when a proper evaluation is done the bigger picture is shown, such as there being 100k earbuds, that's a hell of a lot compared to other items and more than previously thought.
  17. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    With regards to the spreadsheet ... they need to just be more open of who runs the site and posts these numbers to be held accountable when values are clearly shown to be manipulated which IMO is daily. I agree with Ben that the purpose Valve put it up for was to barter for items - wheel and deal otherwise if you do follow a list it is boring but goes outside of the concept for which it was designed.

    and Ben, that slash tires post had me spit Dr Pepper all over my desk - was rather funny.
  18. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    Ah, I am referring ONLY to the "normal item" spreadsheet. So forgive me if I misinterpreted, but the initial reference was what caused it.

    I fully agree there are too many "fake offers" and suchlike on many other places people buy and sell it for sure.

    I think Matti's clear and common sense post summed thing up pretty much ")
  19. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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  20. a tasty serving of

    a tasty serving of New User

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    Its always best to authenticate the price of any item you are looking to buy; this is how I built my wealth. Want a bills hat? Use the search features on tf2 outpost, tf2tp, a couple of the forums and a couple trade servers. The spreadsheet is for the lazy, inexperienced, and impulsive. Eventually you find you can net a bills for 7 keys and a refined usually. This is especially important when buying an unusual. I've saved alot of metal/keys/etc shopping around instead of going by the hearsay you see sometimes on the price checking sites. Though they can be helpful if you want to establish the price of the item you just acquired for cheaper. http://www.tf2items.com/id/tasty_serving