1. There is no such thing as a "pending" ban or Steam admin. Anyone threatening your account is a scammer trying to scare you. Read more.

Does Steamrep illegally collecting IP and Cyber stalking steam user without their consent.

Discussion in 'Discussion Archive' started by Xeomuz, Jan 27, 2016.

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  1. Xeomuz

    Xeomuz New User

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    First of all, I hope Steamrep admin not belittle me and ridicule me. Everytime some one bring this up. The first the thing Steamrep does is to ridicule it as much as possible. My expect first reply is "This is an attack on Steamrep, We should not listen to this guy"

    I heard a lot of horror story about this. Some people have been accuse wrongly by steamrep as an alt. Appeal takes years and most important they blame the victim instead of themselve for the wrong accusation. When the victim try to appeal. Instead of helping Steamrep will ridicule them and blame them for login into scammer account

    This not been covered in their new steam policy about being an alt-account and how they track them. Also where is your privacy policy. I heard you use Steamrep server plugin to cyberstalk people. Is this true or not.

    Also if anyone that have wrongly accuses as an alt to

    Lastly I hope you will not censor or delete my post. I will take this as a sign of corruption in steamrep. I heard Steamrep is really sensitive about this and will trying hard to censor it.
    I will take this as a sign of corruption in steamrep.
  2. You Are The One

    You Are The One SteamRep Admin

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    The only one who can answer your question(s) is Mattie, I have tagged him on this post for followup, and so you dont get bad information from non staff, I have locked it for now, Mattie will be happy to unlock after his reply. Your post will not be deleted or censored, dont worry.
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    a Gentleman likes this.
  3. Mattie!

    Mattie! SteamRep Admin

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    Hello,

    First, it's important to note that it's against our policy to "ridicule" anyone. It's unclear where you get that perspective. If this happens to you by any of our volunteers while they are working on SteamRep matters, please send me a direct note on the matter and I'll put a stop to it.

    However, it's also our policy not to go into details on our fraud prevention tools. It's a reality that most internet services have to analyze all sorts of information to protect themselves from online fraud. Whether it's PayPal, Google, Apple, Maxmind, Visa, etc.-- they use the information at their disposal (from their own sites and partners) to make calls on whether or not a particular visitor is a threat and should be banned from their sites. Our goal is to bring similar fraud prevention and threat analysis to players and communities using Steam, as a free and public database.

    In the Steam community, you can obviously create as many accounts as you want-- and online thieves and hijackers constantly use this to abuse people. When it comes to those bad intentions, scammers are always looking for ways to keep the fraud separate from their real account. They repeatedly look for more and more detailed information on how we discover alternate Steam accounts, so they know how to remain undetected. We're not out to make their jobs easier, so we don't provide details on how we sometimes detect them.

    If you're familiar with VAC, anti-cheat, and similar tools-- there are some interesting parallels. I personally believe Gabe Newell's response to worries about VAC and privacy is a good read. One of the quotes stands out as being also applicable to anti-fraud tools (like SteamRep) and the attempts by scammers to discredit such tools:
    If such a system like SteamRep was making it harder for scammers to scam and hide, it makes sense that they would use social engineering techniques to discredit the site. We see this a lot on Reddit in particular where propaganda brigades are started there to make us look 'evil'.

    This doesn't mean a privacy policy isn't needed, and it's on our to-do list for 2016, but we have a lot of other pressing issues right now and drafting/publishing the privacy policy will take time from those other things which need to happen. For example, we spent several months revising policies such as the one that deals with trades with scammers. Also on the agenda is adjusting our appeal procedures to try and lessen the backlog and help account for partner communities' tags from whom the community no longer exists to handle the appeal.

    It's also important to add-- we definitely don't delete posts critical of us. Anyone who told you otherwise is trying to discredit us. We actually have a strict policy of not deleting dislike or criticism in our forums-- if you look around, you'll find plenty of it for anyone to review. From time to time, we will publicly archive or lock topics when they get abusive towards individuals or stray too far off-topic, yet there's typically warning before that happens. The exception to that would be spam, containing largely malware/phishing links, and fake reputation posts (to prevent people from using a post here as "reputation" to trick people)-- also, once in a while, someone posts personal information and we will sometimes remove that to protect privacy.

    It's clear that your post comes immediately from a very negative direction. I have a feeling that any response we make won't change your mind about us. That being said, hopefully the response above will help you and others understand the situation a little better.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2016
  4. Xeomuz

    Xeomuz New User

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    For your information, I got my perspective from this kind of post
    https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/3sal4c/so_nothing_happened_to_mattie_after_he_bought_a/cwvk7s9

    You can see clearly the steamrep admin ridicule reddit user for being less than 30 days and accuse the reddit user try to make steamrep look evils. This one of the example, I believe there is more on the reddit.

    I hope no one in this thread will ridicule me and thinking that I'm trying to make steamrep look evils because of my reputation. Its just one of my concern because people actually got wrongly banned by this policy. The main reason I bring this up is to avoid from more innocent people from get banned by this unjust policy.

    I have a lot of question to ask and I need Steamrep to answer my question honestly and sincerely. I hope you will not avoid any of my question.

    First of all, congratulation for removing "trades with scammer" policy. This is one of the most annoying Steamrep policy to force them to use their sites.

    But there is another annoying Steamrep policy that not even giving the user a chance to appeal. Alot of people already got caught in the firing line. There is no real ways to avoid this from happening. Even it does, its another thing that Steamrep force people to follow their rules and restrict steam user freedom. Some appeal got granted but its takes years to appeal.

    Being a scammer alt

    Some question above might have already answered above but I want a simple answer. Yes and No.

    Here some question I going to ask
    1. Do you aware or not that, PayPal, Google, Apple, Maxmind, and visa have that steamrep don't have? Its called privacy policy. There is no privacy policy in this website. Website with privacy show what they do and don't with the information they collected. Stop trying to justified yourself you have right to collect people IP without their consent. You not even in the same group as them
    Please answer with yes or no first. Feel free to elaborate why

    2. Do you collect IP from steam user without their concern? Please answer with yes or no first. Feel free to elaborate why

    3. Does steam user know that Steamrep collect their IP information without their consent? Please answer with yes or no first. Feel free to elaborate why

    4. Do you share your collection of IP address with other people without their consent Please answer with yes or no first. Feel free to elaborate why

    5. What is the highest rate that appeal got granted because of Steamrep bad judgement. Is it being a scammer alt ? Please answer with yes or no first. Feel free to elaborate why

    6. What is the longest wrong ban that Steamrep applied to a person for being a scammer alt ?

    7. Do you think I using social engineering to know how you find out scammer alt ?. I hope not. Please answer with yes or no first. Feel free to elaborate why.

    8. Did you use solely use IP do determine who is scammer alt or not ? Please answer with yes or no first. Feel free to elaborate why.

    9. Does Steamrep use guilty until proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty?

    10. How fast does they pass the judgement takes time to accuse steam user for being a scammer alt?

    11. If I login into a scammer IP without knowingly, Does that make me a scammer ? yes or no first. Feel free to elaborate why.

    12. If a scammer login into my IP, Does that make me a scammer too ? yes or no first. Feel free to elaborate why.

    13. If my family member is a scammer. Does that make me a scammer too ? yes or no first. Feel free to elaborate why.

    14. Some country have limited IP, Which mean the IP being shared by thousand of people. If one of them is a scammer, does that make all of them deserve a scammer tag ?

    15. Do you aware that there is no way to differentiate people in the same IP thus innocent people can get caught by this method of punishment? yes or no first. Feel free to elaborate why.

    16. If you wrongly banned someone for being a scammer alt. What will you do to the user to compensate them ? I hope you gift something to compensate them. If not, its like send people into Jail for nothing and release them without compensation.

    I make this post not about to change my mind how I see steamrep or to understand the situation a little better. Its is because I have take a look in appeal section that I see many people got banned wrongly because of being a scammer alt(APPEAL GRANTED). Most of them have been punished by NAZI method AKA collective punishment. I hope you dismiss this kind of punishment since there is no way to avoid this kind of ban when its happens.

    Lastly this thread,
    http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/appeal-76561198235903642-stuff-guy-banned-by-sr.121168/

    You can clearly see that his appeal got instant deny. If this happens to more people. I will feel really sorry for them. The worst part is, Steamrep will blame the scammer for login into innocent IP address. Conclusion, the innocent got punished.
  5. David Trezeguet

    David Trezeguet Banned on SteamRep

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    Fair or not fair is best out there in the internet...not all banned are scammers but all reported scammers are banned. It is not so hard to figure out how they track the alts but in fact many people got no clue so is better to stay like that.Before you call me brainwashed i am banned also so lets just say it is fair observation
  6. Mattie!

    Mattie! SteamRep Admin

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    You misunderstand the comment there. That comment is not ridicule at a "new user"-- it's pointing out that the account is highly likely the fake account of someone who has a personal vendetta against SteamRep (or in that case, me personally). On Reddit, users frequently create fresh accounts to pretend there is more support behind a post. This is very, very obviously a propaganda "post" made from a person who wants to attack me anonymously. It's not a concerned citizen, it's someone out to discredit us. Fake accounts and brigading on Reddit are quite common, and I think it's important that it's pointed out when it's a smear post.

    Regarding your detailed questions about evidence we use to find scammers, I told you already:
    I'm not going to go into that with you, sorry.

    You also seemed to have skipped over the answer about the privacy policy. Refer to that above for your questions on that.

    With regards to your comments on innocent users banned, we take great pains to avoid banning accounts with no ties to a scammer. It's been rare thankfully, but it's regrettable when it happens. We do not keep track of statistics for average appeal time, nor appeals specifically where the person was truly innocent. It's a good idea to do so, and I'll raise it with the appeals admins on how we might do that.

    Yet I hope you understand that "appeal granted" does not always mean the person was "innocent". Many times it's due to the age of the ban, a change in policy, or not quite enough evidence to uphold (or lost evidence). Since we require evidence for every ban to be added, it's rare that a truly innocent account, with no ties to a scammer, is impacted.

    Further, for every ban, we try to use multiple pieces of evidence to back up a decision. With regards to understanding how IP addresses work, how countries have overlaps, etc-- we're very well aware of this. We've been analyzing evidence in these cases for a very long time now (before Steam trading existed).

    Also, you keep using the word "punishment"-- SteamRep's system is not here to punish people or reform them-- it's to alert the trade community that an account is associated with fraud.

    You understand that if we didn't ban the alts of scammers, then every single scammer in the world will simply create a new account to scam with, with no repercussions. Our goal is to protect the community, and to do so (via bans) we have to flag accounts that are associated with a scammer. Obviously mistakes or misunderstandings are possible and do happen from time to time, but the scammers aren't going to tell us which account is theirs. Every scammer claims their brother did it, or that someone used their computer, etc. We have to use multiple types of evidence to approach the case from different angles-- and at the end of the day, we have to make a judgement against the evidence (and warn the community if we think it warrants it).

    We put safeguards in place, such as an opportunity to appeal with a separate admin than the one who added the ban-- this gives it two pairs of eyes to review the evidence and see if it's enough to point towards an account being related to a scam or scammer. Our appeal backlog was behind for a long time, and that's definitely something people are rightfully disappointed about. Yet we're making solid progress now and plan to continue to do so.

    We're not perfect and we do not claim to be. We're volunteers trying to help people avoid scams and we're only human.

    Okay, I'll stop. Your mind is made up and it will do no good to answer your questions. If any response I offer will bring "Stop trying to justify yourself" then I will do as you ask-- we won't try to justify anything else to you.
  7. Xeomuz

    Xeomuz New User

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    Wow just wow, I asking for a simple question and already got avoided completely. The last message obviously show a sign to ridicule me.

    From now on I will us "DEFAME" instead of "punishment". The "DEFAME" have been used by steamrep to warn Steamrep user to trade with certain steamrep user. People that have been wrongly defame have been targeted for attack. Most of them been attacked by profanity.

    I hope you have a good read about this
    https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/defamation

    The "Propaganda" post is all about "trading with scammer" policy. Thanks for the Reddit pressure. This "Propaganda" have successfully give an end to "trading with scammer policy".
    which is quiet infectious. I glad that a Steamrep admin have accidentally trading with scammer and have learn their lesson how cancerous is it and need to be removed.

    Another Cancerous and infectious policy is still there and have potential to get innocent people marked by your system. This need a serious cleanup

    Which question that I'm trying to get into your fraud prevention tools ?
    I only asking if you track steam user IP without their consent or not ? Which is a serious breach of privacy. That's all
    I not interested in your tools at all.

    You also seemed to have skipped over.I make some of my own investigation about this issue. But still I need the answer from Steamrep Admin himself. which is much more accurate.

    Some user have reported that have login into public place and got marked.
    does login into scammer IP will cause to get marked by steamrep ?
    Is this true ?

    The appeal section already show one and got auto-deny. Collective punishment have already been used to Defame steam user. Some people visiting their friends house got wrongly marked by this too.
    Does household can get marked just because a single person a scammer in the house ?

    Its not about your answer is do no good or not. Its all about if you answer my question or not. I want to avoid answer from non staff. But ironically the staff avoid some of my question.

    I going to ask this question again as SteamRep Admin avoiding my questions again. Hopefully its not happening again

    So its does happens right ?

    This is a list of question that about risk of getting marked for for just getting near a scammer that potentially get the same IP as you. Please answer using yes and no

    This Is I totally understand, But how about their family member, friends, household that not alts of scammers. Does they count as an alt too. Do have they have right to get protected too by steamrep ? Do they have higher risk to get marked by Steamrep ? This question is really critical and I need an answer. I hope you not trying to avoid this question again and again.

    I hope you not offended for asking too many question. The main reason why I ask is because I keep travelling around and obviously my IP will change. I have read a lot of horror story about this. Login into cybercafe and you will get a free scammer mark by steamrep admin. I have read this in appeal section and it does happens. The user have show their disappointment to how unprofessional steamrep handle it. The best part is the appeal length. Its can take months and even years. I feel really sorry whoever got caught in the firing line and I don't want become part of this.

    I hope this will never happens to me because the risk is there. I don't want this happen just because of steamrep mistake. I will be subjected to wrong defamation and banned from major site.
  8. Ninja Otter With A Taco

    Ninja Otter With A Taco Retired Staff

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    Fairly sure that the vast majority of websites log your IP when you go on to their website, and many other sites ban users who share the same IP as other banned users. Not an uncommon practice. And I'm like 90% sure its not illegal
    a Gentleman and Roudydogg1 like this.
  9. Mattie!

    Mattie! SteamRep Admin

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    Xeomuz,

    I wish it was easier to separate the few important questions from your gotcha attempts to make us look rotten. Perhaps someone else will eventually ask the reasonable ones without the false dichotomy thrown in. With all the railroading questions and with your responses immediately dismissing my answers, you've set it up so that this is more of a diatribe than a dialogue.

    We're happy to engage on constructive criticism, especially when it's coupled with recognition of the difficulty and rational acknowledgement of our goals. If people have better ideas for preventing fraud, please share those. Not everyone is going to agree with the approaches we take, so if they have better ideas based on a solid understanding of the challenges, then we're eager to brainstorm with them.

    Simply stating "something bad can happen with that policy" is not a useful point to make without context. Every single policy is a trade-off between pros and cons, so none of them are perfect. We weigh both sides of the matter and make the best decision we can in line with our goals-- i.e. look for the most benefit with the least negative impact. As with everything in life, sometimes there are only undesirable options, but you pick the best option available.

    Since you keep leaning your comments this way, I need to mention that our official policy is not to respond to legal topics without legal counsel. If you need to discuss legal matters, you or your representative can send that directly to us-- for example by using the 'Contact Us' form at the bottom of the page or on the OFPF website. When you touch on such topics, our volunteers cannot respond on this forum like they can with everyday questions.

    Finally, you make false statements above. No "SteamRep admin" traded with scammers-- by repeating misstatements like that, it makes it look like you're fine with misleading people to try to make your points. I might assume you were confused on that, but your use of words like "stalking" and "corruption" are similar signs that you want to paint a negative picture rather than have a policy discussion. We don't have enough free time to spare it on these kind of slanted threads.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  10. Lava

    Lava Public Relations SteamRep Admin

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    I'm not touching on the rest of your questions - you're prying into our methods of researching alt accounts which we do not discuss by policy, as stated multiple times - but I will answer this one. It's a somewhat common question that comes up as a result of those tools/methods not being public. If an admin is doing their job correctly, you will not get banned for this. In the rare cases the admin wasn't doing their job correctly (usually a newer admin not adequately trained), appeals are pre-screened before getting thrown into the appropriate queue. You'll notice when someone makes an appeal, it goes into a general appeal section with only a handful of other appeals and may either receive some initial comments right away, or get sent straight to the archive. The staff member moving the appeal to the appropriate section pre-screens it just in case something like that happened, to minimize the chances of an innocent trader waiting an excessively long time for an appeal. Usually mistaken tags like that get resolved within the next 24 hours, depending on how active appeal admins are at the time.

    We do not have, and have never had, a policy where "if you log in from an IP address used by a scammer, you're a scammer yourself and you get their tag". Multiple factors are looked at, and in fact the appeal you quoted had a hell of a lot more evidence than "used the same IP address as a scammer at one point". I realize you can't see this, and that makes it scary because you think you'll get treated with the same lack of respect or consideration in an appeal, but many of the people you see appealing like that go through account after account, repeatedly scamming, and trying to discern methods of staying off the radar. If you see an appeals admin being "unprofessional" or rude like that, there's often other evidence held private, and more often than not a private chat between the appellant and admin that dragged on for a couple hours before the "unprofessional" post you saw. The point at which such replies get posted is after it's uncovered in an investigation that the appellant was lying through their teeth and wasting the admin's time.
    Instead of taking anything you see posted on Reddit from brand new accounts at face value, dismissing the possibility anyone posting anonymously might have ulterior motives, may I respectfully suggest looking at the report in question?
    http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/113910/
    In a nutshell, what happened here was Mattie traded with a bot, on a well-known website for CSGO trading. The bot itself was not marked, the website owner was not marked, the owner is not a scammer, and the website was designed to mask where items come from so as to discourage buyer/seller relationships (modeled after the community market). Mattie was not aware the website ignores SteamRep tags and accepts items from marked scammers. Forensic methods to catch that are unreliable, and there was no readily available method he could have known to easily and reliably determine the bot accepted this item from a marked scammer. The only reason the report was given any consideration at all is because it was against a community admin, all of whom we hold to a higher standard. Anyone else, and it would have been rejected without consideration.
  11. Evilygn

    Evilygn New User

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  12. Xeomuz

    Xeomuz New User

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    Another reminder for Steamrep Admin. Please do not lock this thread or delete my post. I will see this as steamrep corruption to hide themselves from legal problem.

    Most website I visit tell you they track you. Does this site tell you or not ?

    Your current policy are used to protect yourself from legal problem. Which is use to protect your illegal activity. You keep locking thread when people point your illegal unethical act. Instead of open for discussion you lock the thread instantly. Is this a corruption or not ?.

    I want to ask you a question. If you caught someone for scamming and they refused to discuss . Will he got marked as scammer or not ? I hope you not being double standard when answering this question.

    If your answer is yes. I assume Steamrep is corrupted and doing illegal and unethical activity. Reason, refused to openly discuss about their wrong doing.

    A false accusation by steamrep admin. I not here to pry your illegal methods of researching alt accounts which is you keep protecting by your policy to allow you doing illegal stuff and breaking the state law.

    I here to protect my privacy and anyone that wish for it. Do I have right for that or not ? Below is a reddit link show that steamrep know how to respect their staff privacy. But do not know how to respect steam user Privacy.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comm...dmin_attacking_me_because_i_wanted_to/cwp69z8

    Does reddit quote is true or false or is another misinformation by redditor ?

    http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php...ards-your-trades-with-scammers-on-tf2outpost/

    How come Mattie can be unaware of it. He might lying about it and ask scammer to dump their weapons into the bot. And blame the bot instead for trading with scammer. Also does the bot got marked or not ?

    Scrap.tf and TF2WH have been known to use bot and get trade banned for trading with scammer. Why they don't get marked by steamrep ?

    Or Steamrep don't have guts to ban popular people. Even they already break steamrep policy. When that happens and people ask about it. Your explanation is popular people are allowed to break steamrep policy. We don't have right to ban them cause they to huge to get marked. They are big company and not individual. Bigger company and our partners have special privilege for not to get marked by steamrep policy.

    Meanwhile, Other people get marked instantly after been known to trade with scammer without any discussion about their mark.

    Another false accusation by steamrep admin. I here not to paint a negative picture to steamrep. I here to protect my privacy but how you act right now its obviously you stalking and corrupted.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/44v1k3/i_got_banned_from_tf2_outpost_for_being_an_alt_of/

    So his cousin got banned from on TF2outpost and got pending report on steamrep. If the report got pass, will he got marked as scammer or not ?

    If you want to talk about steamrep policy. Since you unable to change your steamrep policy. I suggest you add additional note.

    If you got detected for login into a scammer account or living with scammer or their family members. we have to ban you as there is no way to differentiate between those account. We use collective punishment to punish scammer. Their family member and friends is deserve to get banned because being a scammer friend or family is a scammer too. Blame the scammer instead of steamrep.

    What I learn from this thread. Steamrep is corrupted because you already breaking the law. You refuse to talk about it and use your policy to protect allow your illegal activity. Using collective punishment to defame steam user without their control.

    You're stalking people illegally as you did collect IP without their concern and you fail to see this as corrupted.

    Another reminder, I hope I not get ridicule by steamrep admin taking too much too reply this thread. And please do not lock the thread
  13. Knucklejoe

    Knucklejoe New User

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    I've been watching this thread quietly for a while now, and I feel like I shouldn't be that guy, but still. Are you even listening to yourself Xeomuz? And, no, I am NOT trying to ridicule you, just trying to get you to take a few steps back and actually open a discussion. What I'm seeing looks like a witch hunt. Keep in mind that I am in no way affiliated with SteamRep. I'm just a normal user, same as you.

    I'll go through this point by point.
    As has been noted by multiple admins multiple times, nothing is deleted. Only archived once the discussion has run its course. No need to keep reminding us that you think SteamRep is hiding something illegal.
    This feels like a "gotcha". From what I've seen, a lot of this would need to be answered by a staff member, probably with legal counsel. As far as the catching someone scamming and that user refusing to talk about it, I'm thinking a ban is going their way depending on several other circumstances regarding that case. Your statement is pretty vague.

    You keep saying that you feel SteamRep is doing something illegal... What, other than collecting already public data, if they even do that, are they doing that is illegal? Where is it illegal?

    Pretty sure that's already been discussed in other threads. http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/...-76561197971691194-mattie.113910/#post-316434
    The short version is the item's history was pretty much impossible to determine before buying it. Had Mattie known that it came from a banned user, he wouldn't have bought it.

    Because they are bots. They have no people behind them running the trades. Scrap.tf and TF2WH are also running SteamRep's API, so if a user is banned here, they shouldn't be able to trade to any of either website's bots.

    False. Take d0, for example. http://steamrep.com/profiles/76561198031258757
    One of the top traders in the community, still earned himself a ban. I'll let you do the research on the case yourself.

    Seems pretty negative to me. You keep throwing the words "illegal" and "corruption" and "stalking" around with no evidence to back up your claims. Again, this feels like a witch hunt.

    I'll skip the rest, as you seem to have your mind already made up about it.

    Since you like to keep reminding us of stuff, I'll do the same. This is a rebuttal, not a ridicule. Take my comments how you will, but remember that these comments are mine alone and have no weight on SteamRep's opinions. I am not staff here.
  14. Mattie!

    Mattie! SteamRep Admin

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    This is our final response to you on these forums on these topics.
    Roudydogg1, a Gentleman and Clive like this.
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