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Accepted 76561198025080194 irish

Discussion in 'Archived Reports' started by irish_00, Dec 29, 2012.

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  1. I.Jojo

    I.Jojo New User

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    I do not deny the fact that i was trying to sell my couriers through your reddit shop or that you did price checks for me long ago but situations were very different back then.
    I do not have this in screenshots but can you deny that you have told me that you will quit trading after you have gotten the legacy EF pink badger? You have told me that this is your "Dream Courier" and that you will pay us back asap even if you have to quicksell your other couriers. You put this on your profile : "Trying to quit trading !". Then after two weeks, you have taken that comment down from your profile and told me that you are thinking about keeping the Ivory Yak and the PB Morok. How were you supposed to pay back the total 294 keys without selling those couriers? Can you deny any of these?

    After all this is done. I want to ask you a simple question directly. When were you planning to pay me back my keys?
    irish_00 likes this.
  2. Bluedemon

    Bluedemon Retired Staff

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    Locking this thread. Theres was no scam. This thread has just turned into flame bucket.
    I.Jojo and DataStorm like this.
  3. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    While I liked it, it doesnt make much sense for I wasn't done here. Thats why I had set it to "need more info". And if they want to throw drama at eachother, thats their problem. I needed to know the outcome.

    @ I.Jojo:
    The basic premises of a "loan" are 2 fold:
    1. A loan wich is stacked with collateral. Collateral is items, goods w/e. With a agreeable worth to the lender to be compensated.
    2. A direct loan without collateral, with a payback agreement.

    Those 2 have each their own properties and outcomes.

    1. Loan with Collateral:
    Any items in collateral should be guarded by the lender to be enough to satisfy his coverage of risk to lose the loaned currency. Items swaps can take place here, but that is still to the lender's agreement, and are seen as being a "trade" in the risk assesment of the lender. As the trade is about the risk the lender takes on the loaned sum, if that loan isn't been met, he's compensated by those items. That that isn't to the lender's satisfaction is a risk the lender took by loaning his currency for items he didn't want.

    With other words: you where responsible to keep the Collateral appealing enough for the borrower to buy back at the price he loaned those for. Thats why such collateral items are normally always worth a good bit more then owed. The price changes of such items and the currency is also a factor there that the lender should account for. That it isn't nice of the borrower to not pay back is still a issue I'm thinking about. But the "goods" should have been cared for to be worth what you need to be compensated if the currency isn't paid back. Thats the idea of having colateral.

    I calculated the worth then and now of the keys to understand the worth loss and dynamics of what you traded, and keep it there. I can't account for your mismanagement of the loan. I asumed Irish would want his items back, and set a limit on when he had to settle it. A way out of the situation so to say.

    2. Loan without collateral but with a payback agreement:
    Way more risky, for lender for he can lose his loan total sum without seeing any back of it, but if borrower isn't paying back, this is actually a offense for SR to mark Scammer for.

    Either way, I can't "force" the borrower to pay back. I do have some things I can do, and Irish wont like those, but I can't force him to. But lets just say that its in his interest to do so.

    Your call on marking Irish scammer is out of place with the risk management you did by taking a collateral loan. Its at least 1 step too far.

    What do you mean with "disputed". The ownership isn't disputed. Unless Irish pays back his loan to get back his items, they are yours. You accepted them as being value to your loan to Irish. Read below.

    ======================
    @Irish:

    Again on the "Trade highjack" and dirt throwing, I don't care s✿✿✿ for that, for that happens every day, that all ends in accusations on who said whatever. On the "reputation damage" thats what you get when ppl make havoc calling everybody in, asking for "support' or w/e you want to call it. I've seen better riots to be honest, I remember one report here of dozens of pages of just dirt throwing by like a 50 ppl, this one is stranded barely on page 3. The biggest riots go about the stupidest things. And I or any of the other SR admins don't give a s✿✿✿ bout any of the dirt throwing, it bears no relevancy on the facts we deal with. It bears no effect on the trading, and we don't "rate" friendships or w/e who used whom.

    People trade. They barter, they lend, they let other ppl sell their items, w/e. We look at those trades, and if those aren't ok, we have the experience to be able to absolve if it was theft or not.

    This case you, Irish, borrowed keys, gave collateral with the PROMISE to pay back the loan. Neither disputed that, and all the swap items to trade x for Y is irrelevant. That is something for YOU to repair by. You not meeting the agreement to payback will have some consequences. I'm just still thinking on which consequences exactly.

    The basic fact where we come in in this dispute is on the loan. The rest is not bearing on SR for looking at, for swinging ppl to attention to this is their own doing. You opened a post here, and I.Jojo followed with a report on D2T. So any reputation damage is yours to take, instead of silently deal with your own crap we had to deal with it. Sorry that we then only take the points that are under scrutiny by our definitions of where we deal with.

    Your call for another admin's opinion... lol, see above, altho I disagree and was handling this, so its my call. I might be rarily wrong, but I'm sure as hell almost all the times right. And if you think I didn't talk this thru with another admin who's way more familiar with Dota trading, your really wrong. I've been admin in trading for over 2 years now, and SR admin since the START of SR, After Diego and Jameles, who where coding the site back then. I'm still teaching admins the ropes around, here on SR and to other comm's. Maybe you should validate better whom you talk to.

    ======================

    All this report is, is a dirty friend fight.

    As I didn't see either party disagree with my take of the current state of the 2 collateral items in I.Jojo's possession vs 177 keys borrowed by Irish, I asume that was correct.

    There isn't much to turn to in regards to Valve, for they see this loan just as a trade of items (agreed to the trade), and won't do anything.

    Excuse the spelling and other minor errors, its 23:47 here and I'm going outside now to party for the new year.
  4. I.Jojo

    I.Jojo New User

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    I respect your decision and i really don't want to argue over this whole subject anymore. The past few weeks had been hard on me and i just want to get over with this matter asap. I will wait for your decision about these "consequences" that you talked about and i will also like to know if i have permission to sell these couriers freely as of now.
  5. I.Jojo

    I.Jojo New User

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    Furthermore, what will happen to my report in D2T. Will it be taken down??
  6. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    Oh, once leon sees it, he'll put a reference to this topic and close it I guess.

    and regarding the items, if he's not planning to pay you back before saturday, you're free to do with them what you want. And no answer means a no. He stated earlier that he wouldn't. But I'll allow him to get back on his word on this, but till then you're free to do whatever you like. after the named time on saturday, its all yours, independend of what he says/wants/demands or w/e.
  7. irish_00

    irish_00 New User

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    yes, I think I was clear enough.
    thanks.
  8. I.Jojo

    I.Jojo New User

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    It seems like he confirmed it in his latest post. I will just sell these couriers asap and be done with them. Hope i can sell them though.

    Also i want to thank you for the time you took to resolve this complicated report and want to congratulate you for a somewhat fair decision, although i am curious about these "consequences" that you spoke of.
  9. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    Ok, he just confirmed that he wont pay back the 177 keys, and lost with that his claim to the items in I.Jojo's possesion. As that concludes the matter of the loan with collateral, I'll move on to what I meant with the "consequences".

    For the above issue, I will make a note on irish's profile, linking his alts, and this report, to pose a warning to other traders to not trust his word on matters and see to it that things are dealt with in 1 and the same trade.
    - The reason being that a loan should be honored by the borrower, being clear and transparant bout it.

    I deliberated on issue an Caution tag over this, but I could not fully support such. I do find that there are issues with a loan like this, that should deserve something. As the coverage of the loan is the lenders responsibility when he takes on collateral, I couldn't justify the tag on that grounds. Putting notes up there is perfectly fine for such.

    =========

    During the investigation however, I found another issue I didn't address yet, I saved for this point. Namely the loan of 117 Keys from:

    |steamID: Last Call
    |steamID32: STEAM_0:1:2273308
    |steamID64: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197964812345
    |customURL:
    |steamrepURL: http://steamrep.com/profiles/76561197964812345

    That haven't been paid back. I know it hasn't been reported, and the person seems unwilling to report this issue. Matter of fact in this DOES warrant a Caution tag. Pending this, the caution tag will be applied till a satisfactory answer comes forward with proof that either:
    - A report is made
    - Victim posts his honest reply denouncing it.
    - Irish paid him back, backed by proof.

    The worth of those 117 keys is about 200,- dollars. Quite the large sum one shouldn't ignore. I do have enough to support the caution tag.

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  10. irish_00

    irish_00 New User

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    how does it even connected with this case considering that :

    a) this is a report for I.Jojo
    b) w/e business was there between me and Last Call - its not of your business, mister DataStorm, in any way unless Last Call addressed steamrep or you as a SR admin
    c) by term "victim" in this case my name is used, not Last Call's

    the way you have turned my report against me giving me a "caution" tag is pretty outrageous itself.

    so I am looking for solid non-looking-into-other's-business grounds for "caution" tag or lifting it and closing the case.
  11. irish_00

    irish_00 New User

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    or again - another admin's opinion.
  12. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    Lets clear some assumptions firsts.

    1. That this report is only "aimed" at I.Jojo.
    The report is a case about a trade agreement (your loan of keys) brought to the attention to the SR admins by you. That can mean that if you are wrong in your assumptions of who's at fault, we can correct that issue and have action against reporter instead of the one being reported. Has happened before, and will happen again. There is no "strike first to be right" rule here, unlike some law systems in the world. Also, I.Jojo had you reported on D2T (which would have been fare more logical btw for you too). As I said earlier, I wrapped it here, that makes this report the place for all related to this report and your 2 loans for getting certain items.

    2. That a report is ONLY about the issue reported.
    While investigating a case, other things may come up with it. In fact, its even related, for you needed those 117 keys from Last Call in addition to the 177 keys from I.Jojo to do a certain trade. As I found sufficient evidence for this, but not definitive enough to mark you scammer for, I have only the Caution tag I can tag you with currently till this is resolved either way.

    3. Opinion of other admins:
    I'll quote myself:
    I'll add to this, that I've talked this case thru in various aspects with other admins.
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    Either you stop the bullshitting, or I close this up, been spending too much time on this.
  13. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    and on that "other admin opinion":
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  14. irish_00

    irish_00 New User

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    quite mature attitude to the reporters out there from the admins side.
    came for justice - got some show off disrespectful kids.
  15. irish_00

    irish_00 New User

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    also to be more clear, since you are pros of demagogy - by "kids" I haven't meant Helen.
    I will talk to her. if she will refuse/agree to help me - I will post a reply here.
  16. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    You had your answer:
    You are the kid around here. Can't even read a message, get to the point or answer a question. Helen won't go against me on this. She does do so on occasion on other topics, but not on my rulings.

    Closing topic, told you that I had enough bullshit from you, don't bother starting a new one. Really, I'm the most patient admin around here.

    The only possible changes that are available now are:
    - "Last Call" reporting you.
    - A appeal. But as the tag you have is justified, I'm not giving you much chance. I know, for I'm a Appeal Admin too, which only a few admins on SR are.

    So, thats where throwing bullshit brings you. Bye.

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