1. There is no such thing as a "pending" ban or Steam admin. Anyone threatening your account is a scammer trying to scare you. Read more.

Am I entitled to have an open disucussion here?

Discussion in 'SteamRep General Discussion' started by BigMac187, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    I've posted twice since a forum ban and both posts have been locked.

    I have more questions regard the topics and will like some more clarifications, is this possible?
  2. a Gentleman

    a Gentleman SteamRep Moderator Partner Community Donator - Tier V

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    You can try. You have a history of being extremely disruptive. You are entitled to nothing.

    Ask away.
  3. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    From my perspective I've been highlighting concerns and the fact that highlighting issues can be considered as disruptive isn't on me. I seem to have a bad rep by SteamRep admins, and I feel this bad rep had caused an incorrect marking towards me (outside of process)

    I'll just like to be able to point out issues and my thoughts on ways to maybe improve them but I'm under the impression that I'm not going to get a fair go and just have everything locked.
  4. a Gentleman

    a Gentleman SteamRep Moderator Partner Community Donator - Tier V

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    Constructive criticism is always welcome. Slander and attempts to burn down everything this anti-fraud community has worked on are not.

    As long as you know the difference you and I will get along just fine.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  5. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    I've been pushing for improvements, I've been highlighting issues way before my marking which I felt was very incorrect which highlighted to myself and others how innocent people are being affected by the systems the anti-fraud community has implemented.

    I don't know how I can best explain myself being vocal previously but I feel like I am at the other end of the spectrum, SR is working hard to rid the community of scammer but the approach also means that there is going to be innocent people caught in the firing line, I've been mostly voicing my opinion in regards to how easily and how common it is for the innocent people to fall through the gaps. There's other issues as well. But to think I want SR to burn to the group i feel is short sighted, I'm more interested in seeing a smooth and safe trading environment minus the innocent people being affected and the forced opped in approach.
  6. a Gentleman

    a Gentleman SteamRep Moderator Partner Community Donator - Tier V

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    Once you stop using alts to post things and only use your real account, I'll start taking your suggestions at face value. Otherwise, let's just hear your questions. You had some?
  7. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    The problem is, the topics wander so much without it going anywhere. We're aware that SR can have "innocents" cought in the fireline, hence the process is since early 2012:
    - People report
    - Mod reviews report and asks to complete evidence. They can leave hidden notes to admins regarding things they noted there.
    - Admin processes the report, depending on evidence etc there is a certain outcome for that (mark accused, archive, reject, and in very rare cases: mark the reporter for providing false evidence)
    - Banned can then appeal, which will be reviewed by a DIFFERENT admin. Appeal admin will review all what he/she can find regarding the appeal, and make a decision. Most granted appeals are regarding lacking evidence, or changed policies etc, or it being regarded as minor offense.

    That means that a Mod, and 2 admins will have looked at the same report in that process. True, a mod wil generally seek to complete the evidence to its fullest, and then move it on. Also, the mod may be promoted along the way and decide to handle reports he did as mod. There is however 1 requirement: the one handling the report is NOT allowed to do the appeal, unless he/she is going to GRANT the appeal (ie: repair a mistake).

    As for evidence, most mods are already privy to what evidence is provided in the hidden notes and hidden subfora's are used, and get things explained on how that stacks and works. We hear reactions from them once they become mods and start to see the evidence we have in the hidden notes etc that things start to make sense. The Partner Community admins already can see some of it, and the more active Friend community admins. We simply cannot reveal how we find them, but I can say this: any community admin that has worked with SteamRep knows what kind of evidence and high standards we use. The same also goes for the alt accounts research.

    We would not be able to keep any mods or admins if we where doing things randomly like you portrayed. That simply doesn't work, and Communities would very fast turn away from us if we did such.

    So getting back on the "Innocents", in almost all cases where they were giving examples, they pointed to accounts that where giving a lot of problems in the past. I remember one particular topic, where they where claiming that an account was innocent, but it was an "OG" alt. OG is/was a hijacker that hijacked low ID accounts and impersonated Valve Employees etc. He also made fake steam tickets to Steam Support, and a lot of other crap he pulled. Valve stepped in and banned a good bunch of his accounts back then. Hell, some things I remember about the case still are under lock. Of all accounts they could choose they chose that one... meh...

    As for the accounts you pointed at... they gotta appeal. One against being a alt, the other to get the ban lifted. That is explained in the appeal tips and appeal guide etc.

    Now, discussion is fine by us, but too often it becomes some kind of all-in and no topic at hand with you. You ask/discuss a specific topic, but then go sidelining/move away from that and pull in something completely unrelated every time someone with authority answers. There is simply almost no point in keeping that up: you start about A, we reply why/how/when about A. You then say you didn't mean A but you mean actually C, we explain C, you then say, nononono, I meant Q. We: No point in responding or talking.

    Discussion is not wandering around exploring what our rules are and talk every which way. Discussion is INFORMING yourself regarding a specific subject, then if some is unclear or not agreeing to such, you talk point and bring arguments on the table of why (or what) changes must be implemented. This may include positions, arguments, proposals, etc. regarding the one and same subject. That is the only way you can work on a subject.

    We don't mind discussion, we love it. But playing Whack-a-Mole isn't discussion.

    So, I'm leaving this open for now. We'll see what happens I guess....
  8. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Wait what? I've never posted on an alt here.. feel free to link in any alt you think is mine and any evidence you might have. And by that statement I'm not to concerned how you perceive me, it just seems like a means to discredit me when you have nothing else.
  9. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    hmm, I think I know which he meant, but I think he's confused with another disgruntled user that is continually making new accounts to post here with TOR, Proxy and VPN connections. Lol, that one simply doesn't get it that such doesn't get any credit, just annoyance and ignoring for he/she never returns with the same account... We have our "suspects" of whom that may be, but you where not really on that.

    So, another detour.... focus.... learn to focus and stop wandering around.
    Enstage likes this.
  10. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Appreciate the reply, and yes the processes you have highlighted are in place but it does not mean they are working in a fair manner. I understand your perspective of it, I'll really just like you to see my perspective and the perspective of others and hope that you can take them on board when reviewing your processes.

    As an example, with the case I questioned in the locked thread, to me it's only clear that this person was marked incorrectly. Even if he was the user that is being associated to as the ALT he still not should be marked.

    A concern I have here is, if I am not performing a scam related task and looking at the facts presented and have identified that they are not a threat to my trade or the community then why is it that I will be punished for doing something I feel is right and has no harm on anyone. (The user in question was marked as an alt of a spycrab runner that ran from a crab years before. Speaking to a couple partners, the main account should not have been marked to begin with)

    From my perspective, I've been incorrectly banned here (outside of process) - had my rep deleted by a senior admin - I've seen people incorrectly marked & highlighted it. There are many things I agree and disagree with regarding SteamRep but I am forced to into the service you created. Why should I trust the system with all the flaws, Why am I being forced to use it? I really feel it's unethical to be forcing a service on people, no 1 signed up to follow SR guidelines when they created their Steam account but as it stands SteamRep has placed itself in a position of power and in doing so has broken parts of the TOS.

    I am not saying it's wrong to list scammers as scammers, if someone has scammed the community deserves to be warned but it should be up to individual users to do the research on how safe they feel with their trades and not be forced into casting a judgement by a ruling by someone else and in some cases with hidden evidence or due to an outdated or incorrect ruling. I'll like to think I have the end say on who I can trade with and not have to ask for permission.
  11. You Are The One

    You Are The One Appeals SteamRep Admin

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    -snip-
    since no matter what i say, someone always gets butthurt and cries.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  12. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    SR.. if it's going off topic it's because of your team. I'm trying to keep a normal discussion.

    But fireaway YATO? Where did I lie? Did you not deleted my reputation due to a personal issue?
  13. Ninja Otter With A Taco

    Ninja Otter With A Taco Retired Staff

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    Just FYI noone is forced into following SR, if a large number of people decided to stop following SRs rules, SR couldn't do much outside of banning them from partner comms, and if they truly didn't care that wouldn't affect em. I'm sure a large number of people who listen to and follow SRs guidelines don't like SR or have issues with it, but they chose to follow those rules.
  14. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Sorry I beg to differ,

    If they want to continue trading conveniently then they are forced to follow the rules. If they don't follow the rules they risk convenient trading. A single person can't decide to go against a SR rule without risking their convenient trading. If they don't like SR or have an issue with it but they "choose" to follow the rules it's only because of the consequences.
  15. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    Well lets see...

    You touch upon a lot of different subjects in your post:
    1. The SR isn't working in a "fair' manner in how we process reports and appeals.
    2. Take "Your perspective", and that of "others" into account.
    3. Example case of "unfairly" marked.
    4. Pulled in "partner admins" without naming them, saying that they believe that account should not have been marked.
    5. You been incorrectly banned by SteamRep
    6. Your Rep deleted by a "senior admin"
    7. Forced to use SteamRep
    8. Why Trust SteamRep
    9. SteamRep has placed itself into a position of power.
    10. SteamRep has broken parts of the (Steam) ToS.
    11. "not wrong to list scammers as scammers"
    12. Up to the individual to trade or not on their own judgement.
    13. Hidden evidence not shown.
    14. Outdated / incorrect ruling (I'll put those in 1)
    15. Having to "ask permission".

    My, my. And that in only 5 alinea's.

    To address those 15 individual subjects, I would have to write a VERY long reply again... almost all points explained fully would be like the length of my previous post per point... While I see no real arguments / positions (maybe you see those 15 points as argumens or w/e) but its pretty useless for me to keep explaining each and every point you bring forward like this.

    Its like skipping stones over water (given, getting 15 skips is a incredible but impossible score in the real world, where 7-8 is the maximum btw) without ever sinking into the subject and go in depth and give individual arguments or proposing anything like a solution (feasable or not) towards it.

    This just goes exponential, and makes it very hard to have any real discussion. It has as result that whatever you try to bring across gets "drowned" with all the other subjects you bring forth....

    As you guessed by now, I'm not going to spend the time to reply to each of those points... not without you doing your part in the discussion....
  16. a Gentleman

    a Gentleman SteamRep Moderator Partner Community Donator - Tier V

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    For the sake of productivity, let's try something.

    @BigMac187 please ask one single question, without referring or alluding to other questions and issues that you want to also bring up.

    We'll try to answer that question. Then you can ask another specific question. And so on so forth.

    Everything's getting lost in paragraphs, so let's try this out?
  17. Lava

    Lava Public Relations SteamRep Admin

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    To answer that SOP thing, SourceOP is a separate community. No partner/friend community, SOP or otherwise, has agreed to allow us to micromanage their content or bans. They, like TF2 Outpost, are allowed to ban anyone for any reason, or without any reason, if they so wish. It's their website, their rules. Fun fact: There are SteamRep staff banned from SourceOP, but because their ban is between them and SourceOP (like every single other ban on SourceOP), SteamRep will not intervene. That an admin from SourceOP is also an admin on SteamRep is irrelevant; they are different communities run by different policies and procedures. SteamRep also doesn't have anything to do with reputation threads, anywhere, even if they're in a community that has SteamRep staff on their admin crew.

    SourceOP is well known for being very liberal with their bans, and that may well be part of the appeal behind a reputation thread on their website. You got banned by them, not us. If you have a problem with it, complain to/about SourceOP. Instead of saying "SteamRep banned me" or "A SteamRep admin banned me" try making your next Reddit post about "Admin from SourceOP banned me and effectively trashed 4+ years' worth of reputation" since that's really what happened, then you can discuss the how and why on proper pretexts. SteamRep is not involved with your reputation thread, and we have nothing to do with it. You're barking up the wrong tree, but somehow I think you know that already. I don't think the reputation thread is really what you care about; you want a way to spin it against SteamRep, either because you don't want to deal with YATO, because it's popular/fun to bash SteamRep, because your jimmies rustle at the sight of someone you dislike being an admin here, or because you have some weird idea that SteamRep should be the omnipotent benevolent dictators of trading communities while you meanwhile tell tell people not to trust any of our tags because one non-staff partner made a few mistakes.

    Part of why nobody is willing to speak with you anymore is that every time a discussion doesn't go your way, you repost the same thing again from the start (something Reddit is really good for), to try and sway more people who didn't see it the first half dozen times, and all the while you dig and dig for more morsels you can use as talking points to try and quote or single out whichever person said it to try and discredit SteamRep as a whole. It's not like this is the first time you've pressed for SteamRep to intervene with a ban we didn't issue, on a website we don't own or control. Your questions are loaded, your manner is hostile, and you have selective attention. That's very difficult, tiring, and time consuming for a small and diminishing group of volunteers to address with when we have other things to work on - like, you know, actually reviewing these policies, drafting/proposing changes, or grinding at those backlogs you and everyone else complain about. And on top of reposting the same nonsense repeatedly, when you don't get your way (like with SR not overturning FoG's tag simply because you didn't want to appeal), you stalk, harass, and slander staff members, like you did with Mattie on backpack.tf and Reddit. Even I'm uncomfortable (at best) with speaking to you at this point.
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  18. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    (There's been a lot of questions but i feel if i answer them all it might be a reason for a lock, I'll like to keep this open and stick to the topic of - Users for the most part should have the final say in a trade)

    SilentReaper I only typed up 4 paragraphs, all with solid points and in a clear manner. I highlighted my concern, and stated the reason for my concerns. I could have highlighted just my concern but you would have said they are unjustified, I added valid content to my concern but you choose to write it off because it's to hard to answer. If you feel like you can't answer my concern simply then it's on you, if you need to break down statements but find it hard to break down an argument to suit yourself that highlights an issue on your side. My argument was clean, short and to the point.

    Lava I understand SOP is a partner and they can do what they want. What I mentioned was in regards to how a SteamRep staff has handled them self, SR mentions it a lot they they only look to hire the most legit, clean... I'm pointing out that a Senior Member has deleted rep which I feel and many will agree is unethical, being that he did it on another community doesn't change the fact he did it. To put in simply "it is evident a SteamRep senior admin has deleted reputation based on personal issues" This is fact, it's unethical and it was done by a SteamRep admin.

    I'm with you on that Gentle, simplicity might make things easier. But if you respond please also respond in a simple manner and give me the opportunity to ask a follow up question.

    If a user is marked as banned but it's clear they are incorrectly marked due to an older process (example, they ran from a low tier spy crab 5 years ago, it wasn't reported to the community that it happened on and they have an appeal which hasn't been looked at) will there be a punishment for using your own judgement / morals in completing the trade or is every trade bound by the SteamRep ruling (correct or incorrect).
  19. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    I can answer all your concerns short and sweet, you seem to be looking to overcompensation the 4 paragraphs to avoid the highlighted issues.

    Let me know if you need anything cleared up.

    1. The SR isn't working in a "fair' manner in how we process reports and appeals.

    Yes, this is evident by the backlog and years it takes in some cases to action appeals

    2. Take "Your perspective", and that of "others" into account.

    Yes I think it makes sense to look at things from other perspectives from time to time.. otherwise it's just being selfish.

    3. Example case of "unfairly" marked.

    Yes.. i placed evidence, that account should not be marked

    4. Pulled in "partner admins" without naming them, saying that they believe that account should not have been marked.

    I had a post on the FoG forum there's evidence there

    5. You been incorrectly banned by SteamRep

    Yes, I was marked for something out of process, we can discuss this if you like

    6. Your Rep deleted by a "senior admin"

    Yes, this is fact YATO has deleted my reputation, he is considered a senior admin

    7. Forced to use SteamRep

    For convenient trading I am

    8. Why Trust SteamRep

    I highlighted reasons into why I don't feel like I can

    9. SteamRep has placed itself into a position of power.

    It has, SR has the power to ban people from conveniently trading

    10. SteamRep has broken parts of the (Steam) ToS.

    Yes, on many points. Listing alts is a breach of privacy if you didn't know... breaching privacy is against the code of conduct... there's other points we can discuss but i thought i'll just highlight 1

    11. "not wrong to list scammers as scammers"

    Yes, I agree with a warning system to warn the community on who may scam them.

    12. Up to the individual to trade or not on their own judgement.

    Yes, SR used to work this way... it was a resource website when you will go to see if you will be affected by a trade, SR didn't always impose their judgements on every users. SR is automatic OP'd in.. it shouldn't be.

    13. Hidden evidence not shown.

    Yes, evidence is not always shown.. sometimes more evidence may exist sometimes they may not.. we don't know

    14. Outdated / incorrect ruling (I'll put those in 1)

    Yes outdated rulings exist

    15. Having to "ask permission".

    Yes with the at times unclear nature of SR there are cases where people need to ask permission... when can an account be considered an alt?


    Everything I said was valid, if you have an issue with an individual point feel free to highlight it. Otherwise I think for the sake of discussion it's best you look at what was said as a whole rather than try and break them down into other points and argue points individually. You blame me for diverting when really it's yourself. I laid out everything clean.
  20. Lava

    Lava Public Relations SteamRep Admin

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    That's opinion and a matter of perspective. I claim commandeering their website and forcing them to allow use of particular users or retain certain types of content as a "partner" would be unethical, or at the very least disrespectful and non-conducive towards a lasting partnership. It's their website, and they have zero obligation to keep someone they don't want around on their site or servers, or to continue hosting any of that content. As for whether it's anything SR is concerned about... Did YATO demand anything from you as a condition to remain at SourceOP, such as a particular trade or item(s)? Did YATO ban you in retaliation for something, such as refusing to complete a certain trade or reporting one of his staff to SteamRep? If you answered "No" to both of those questions, then it's not something SR would be concerned with in any community. The way I understand it, you made a trade with a marked scammer. SOP routinely bans for trading with scammers, and they often don't even care if you knew. You weren't even banned for something personal, but because you traded with a scammer. So unless I'm mistaken about that reason, you weren't banned for something personal.

    Now, since you insist you weren't lying or misrepresenting the truth, the burden of proof that YATO, acting as a SteamRep admin, deleted your reputation thread as part of a personal vendetta. Do you stand behind this claim, or do you concede that using it as a claim against SteamRep is distorted?
    This has already been answered.

    I'm not reviewing the cases right now, but I disagree that it's an obvious "incorrect" mark. For some context...
    1. Running from a spycrab is still a taggable offense. You're probably thinking of the change to investigative policy, but that update does not legitimize spycrab running. Rather, that change directs spycrab reports to communities where the offense took place, because those communities are better equipped to deal with reports happening on their own servers. SteamRep does not run any game servers, and it's often hard for staff here to investigate and validate evidence from servers we don't manage.
    2. There are 2 schools of thought on the severity of this offense, and whether it warrants a tag. Some might claim that for something so small, a reputation- career-ruining mark is Draconian for what amounts to 20¢. On the other hand though, others would argue if someone can't be trusted with a refined metal, they can't be trusted with an unusual.
    3. The "brother" account that was reported for running from a spycrab, to date, has not appealed. Don't you think if he were innocent he'd have appealed by now?
    4. The alt you wish to trade with was asked for other accounts. We usually ask this when another account was uncovered and we think the appellant is withholding something. Omitting, covering up, or lying about information like that is grounds for having the appeal denied. If you can't be honest about that, we can't trust you to be honest about your "brother".
    Trading with him because you disagree with the tag doesn't excuse knowingly trading with a marked scammer. If it did, then anyone who traded with a marked scammer could argue "I don't think you should tag for impersonation scams, because only an idiot who deserves it would fall for it" or "The scammer never said when he'd send PayPal". It's a pretty black and white policy, in the interest in fairness, but sometimes leeway is given based on intent so people who make honest mistakes are generally not caught in the crossfire. Doing so knowingly in protest, like you showed above, is not an honest mistake.

    I'd venture to guess that in the near future though, your stance on this particular rule, will become moot. We've been working on revising a whole bunch of policies and procedures for the past few months now, and we're pretty close to publishing an update.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.