1. There is no such thing as a "pending" ban or Steam admin. Anyone threatening your account is a scammer trying to scare you. Read more.

Am I entitled to have an open disucussion here?

Discussion in 'SteamRep General Discussion' started by BigMac187, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. Lava

    Lava Public Relations SteamRep Admin

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    Whatever happened to you keeping it to one at a time? Now this is a mess. I can't answer all of these because I don't have the necessary context, and I don't have time to go digging through your post history everywhere to try and figure out what you or Silent Reaper are referring to.
    That's not "unfair", it's just a backlog. Unfair would be giving preferential treatment to personal buddies in reports, or answering all those "how long until my report is reviewed" posts in the general discussion board by expediting their reports. Which is incidentally why we handled this thread the way we did; the mod who took the report was newer and didn't understand why we did things the way we do (also, handling reports from the discussion board invites a flood of other people doing the same thing, making this board unusable). It's unfair to people getting scammed who read all the anti-SR propaganda and traded with a marked scammer because they thought the tagging admin was "corrupt".
    See above. I'm not going to expedite that appeal without a really good reason because that's not fair to other people waiting in line.
    [Citation needed.]
    No, you were banned by Fortress of Gamers. No SteamRep admins were involved in that case, except for giving a dual-role staff member instructions on what to do with a duplicate report (separate reports on both FoG and SR).

    As a partner, FoG has some level of discretion in cases where they feel there's more sketchy things going on. They felt you not only traded with a marked scammer, but did so knowingly and lied to try and get away with it, and as an experienced high tier trader had little if any plausible deniability in having checked out where such a valuable item was coming from. Not saying I agree or disagree with it, but it doesn't matter. SteamRep did not issue the tag, FoG did. SteamRep cannot, practically speaking, oversee partners' tags on the level you're trying to hold us accountable for. Either way, your appeal at FoG was ultimately granted. I'm not going into details about this case, what I think about it, what I think about FoG, or anything like that, for a shotgun "look at all these things wrong with SteamRep" post.
    See above.
    If you want to use a trading website, you follow the rules that website sets in place. Don't like it? Don't use their website. Same for tradings server, or any other kind of service. There are still websites and trade servers out there not banning for SteamRep tags.
    You're spreading FUD primarily to a group of non-traders who doesn't know any different because they will take what a high tier trader says at face value. Do you see anything wrong with that?

    There are plenty of things you can criticize SteamRep for, most notably the appeal backlog and slowness to adapt or update policies. Out of all the legitimate criticisms and concerns though, if there's one problem we don't have though, it's a lack of integrity. SteamRep admins take integrity and honesty seriously, more than the general public will probably ever know. It's the community who trusts us.

    No system is ever perfect, and I'm sure you can find an isolated case or several of someone who shouldn't have been tagged - I have no doubt you're looking and will continue to look whatever your motives may be - but our track record among those cases we have handled speak for themself. The community has trusted us to the point of automatically banning someone with a negative mark in our database without question. Community admins are, of course, free to inquire about individual cases if they have doubts, which has happened in a number of cases, but in the end it only served to reinforce that level of trust. What's truly amazing about our reputation and integrity is many of these communities are practically feuding with one another, to the point of banning eachother's admins, but when it comes to SteamRep and our cause here, they still manage to band together and work as a team to make trading safer for their userbase.

    You've decided SteamRep needs to go, and you're unwilling to trust us. Nothing I say here will change your mind, because you don't trust me or my word, so I won't even bother trying. I will highlight the above for others reading here though.
    The trading community has placed SteamRep into a position of power. That's a position of trust; over the years our integrity (see #8), not the protection racket you've been making us out to be.
    [Citation needed]

    But seriously, if you're dead set on this theory that we're breaching Steam's ToU, go make a Steam Support ticket. Or email someone at Valve. I'm sure if we were violating their terms of use, our API keys would be revoked. Other keys have been revoked.
    I'll defer this until after some policy changes have been made public.
    Last time you brought this up, you were concerned about information being shared. Now you're concerned about information being withheld from the public. As it stands, we redact sensitive or arguably sensitive information out of respect for privacy and online safety, but previously this was apparently a problem for you. Are you really concerned about this point, or are you just looking for a perspective to use against us? What are you recommending here?
    That's not "asking permission", that's asking someone to research an account. When we get those, we use private tools to attempt to locate alternate accounts, or judge the profile to try and help people make a safe decision. Generally speaking, unless you're a community admin with access to said tools, or someone in a position of responsibility with training to know better, you're not going to have trades with an obvious alt held against you unless you had reason to know it was a scammer alt.
    Looking at your "valid" points above, you've got a couple unclear things (I'm probably missing context or something), spread across a mountain of bullshit. I addressed them, but let's try and keep with Gentleman's suggestion of one topic at a time, ok? That request is directed at everyone, including staff.
    Roudydogg1 and SilentReaper(SR) like this.
  2. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Hey Lava,

    You are mistaken. I was banned from SOP due to the trade with scammer yes but my reputation was deleted when I questioned processes here. My reputation was deleted out of spite from discussions with took place on the SteamRep forum which YATO was involved in. I was banned before but my reputation was deleted after the discussions, the deletion of my reputation came from me highlighting concerns here. My reputation was deleted for questioning practices and not for the trade in question.

    To your points.

    Maybe review the case before you look to make comments on it.

    1. Yes it is a taggable offense but this wasn't handled correctly

    2. Yes there could be multiple school of thoughts, this adds to my point. The community could be at 80% towards one thought but SteamRep could be of the thought of the 20% in this case the 20% outweighs the 80% and the 80% is forced to follow the SR thoughts or be banned. With the case we are discussing I am of the impression that this isn't something SteamRep deems as worthy of such a severe punishment

    3. I was not looking to trade with the accused runner, I was looking to trade with the brother. This is his appeal http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/a...-by-sr.106963/ He may have ran and not decided to appeal it, he may have not cared about a ban but these are besides the point, from my understanding of SteamRep process he should not still be banned.

    4. In fairness the burdon of proof should be on you to prove that he is the brother, not for him to prove to that he isn't. The way things work in the real word, the accuser needs to be doing the proving not the other away around. I can understand how it's tricky and you need to take a stance on it but understand how having a blanket "everyone on the same IP is the person" mentality can present some cracks.

    You said "Trading with him because you disagree with the tag doesn't excuse knowingly trading with a marked scammer"

    If I trade with him there is no evidence that I am trading with a marked scammer, SteamRep has presented no evidence at all that his is a scammer.

    If i was to trade them it wouldn't have been out of protest like you said it would have been out of me looking at the information presented, seen that it was weak, out of process, outdated and unfair. There is zero evidence that I can see that he is in fact a marked scammer.

    Morally I feel it was right to trade with them but With the current rule set I can't follow through with my moral judgement and I need to see what an outdated system which evidently has marked people incorrectly and doesn't allow for a timely appeal.


    I'd venture to guess that in the near future though, your stance on this particular rule, will become moot. We've been working on revising a whole bunch of policies and procedures for the past few months now, and we're pretty close to publishing an update.

    If that's the case then you should understand my thinking and not see it as an attack. If there's something in the works that's going to change all this then doesn't that mean there was a reason for concern?

  3. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    I'll just reply to these quickly Lava, I'll like to go point by point. Honestly I just stated my thoughts and it's getting dissected by yourself and other staff. My replies are brief.

    1 | 3: Lets call this a difference of opinion. I feel that getting to the point where people need to wait years for an appeal is unfair. How it got that way (backlog / laziness doesn't matter)

    4. Regarding that comment it's there on the 1st page of the general board, if it's not there call me a lier.

    5. You said SR wasn't involved in my marking well Ninjas comment proves otherwise (before doing so we spoke to SR admins for their opinion.) http://forums.f-o-g.eu/threads/6775...igmacineedadoublecheesebuerger.html#post62220


    7 + 9. That's a fair comment, a lot of this has as much to do with the larger partners. It is what it is and other communities will follow, but it doesn't change the fact that for the majorities of trading related services we are forced to follow.

    8. I am highlighting legitimate concerns, I am not spreading lies and if I am mistaken I am happy to correct them, during the outpost AMA I was corrected on an issue and as such i updated a reddit post.

    10. Breach of privacy (listing alts) | defamation (incorrect markings)


    12: This is the main reason for my posting atm the fact that something is being looked at / done is great. (do things get done without noise?)


    13. The information should not be shared fullstop but if your going to breach peoples privacy and defame them at least point to reasoning into how you got there.

    15. It's asking for permission, they aren't asking you provide them with the information for them to make the judgement they are asking you to look at it to give them the judgement.
  4. Ninja Otter With A Taco

    Ninja Otter With A Taco Retired Staff

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    To do with #4 I posted on a thread he made on FoG saying that there wasn't enough valid evidence in my opinion for the original account to be tagged, due to the evidence being an admin of a server backing up claims and chat from a server copied and pasted into a steam chat with a picture of it. However from looking at the thread it seems like one of our trade mods messaged penguin about it but I'm not too sure. This was the thread he was talking about iirc http://forums.f-o-g.eu/threads/9749-will-i-get-marked-sr-trading-user.html just to clear one thing up
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  5. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Appreciate the input Taco.

    With the trade in question I received a trade offer, it was something i was considering and I was looking through the persons profile and backpack.

    - He has 4200+ hours
    - Collects Haunted External Organ
    - Collects Loli Chops

    He was interested in a halloween ghosts taunt, he told me it was a dream item and his backpack made sense that it will be.

    The only thing that didn't checkout was that he was banned as an ALT. The ban was placed from Outpost many years after the first account was banned.

    Years went by and this person hadn't been reported for anything, he is saying it was his brother that ran. I don't think he can prove it without a doubt and I don't SteamRep can prove it was. But in the case he is saying the truth and it was his brother then he is banned by IP association. Say it was the first person that got banned who then setup a new ALT then he has been trading for years since the first ban on an alt... racking up crazy amounts of hours and collecting items with no proof of distribution to the community. Taking everything into consideration I felt I should be trading this person. Clicking over those hours is very respectable in my books & proves a high level of commitment.

    His enjoyment of playing TF2 is degraded by flaws within SteamRep & the communities decision making of who they can and can't trade with are highly influenced by SteamRep.
  6. Lava

    Lava Public Relations SteamRep Admin

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    Not going to address your entire checklist of talking points at once, because I'd end up sinking 6 hours per reply, and I have other things to do. I'll cover maybe 1 or 2 out of relevance, but as suggested by Gentleman, if you want to complain or criticize and be taken seriously, keep it to one item at a time.
    Admins can ban for disrespect or whatever other reason they see fit. Your reputation thread was deleted after you were banned, and after an SR admin replied to your complaint that the ban was not relevant to SteamRep. As already stated, it's their website, they can do whatever they want with it. If they do that with a lot of people, then people will quit using their website and the community will die. Go complain about SourceOP instead of shifting blame onto SteamRep.

    As for YATO, (if it was even him) he acted as a SourceOP admin, consistent with their procedures. If he acted out of line, then it's for SourceOP to figure out and remove him if necessary. He did not use his position at SteamRep, or anything that entails, for what he did. IF he banned you from the SteamRep forums (Mattie did that later for an unrelated issue) or issued you a tag (you were tagged by FoG), then it could be abuse, but that didn't happen. What happened was entirely within SourceOP though, with something that SteamRep doesn't even deal with, and you've been parroting it as a reason to discredit SteamRep, another community he happens to volunteer for. Just because you put all your eggs in one basket and depended on a SourceOP reputation thread doesn't mean they had any kind of special obligation to you. Just because they're respected or trusted throughout much of the trading community to the point of a lost reputation thread having a substantial impact doesn't mean they lose ownership over their site or its content.

    As for how fair or reasonable his decision was, requiring them to continue hosting your reputation thread would be like requiring you to keep an arbitrary file on your desktop at all times, never deleting it, and copying it to any new computer(s) you purchase for the rest of your life. No matter what kind of relationship we had with you, that'd would be your personal computer, and we'd have no business telling you what to do with it. Likewise, we have no business telling SourceOP what to do with their user content. You're upset because you lost something you put a lot of time into, and I understand that. Take it up with them instead of dragging a 3rd party into your soap box.
    I'm calling it misleading. When you say "unfair" it implies that reports are handled with preferential treatment. From what you posted here, your complaint is that a substantial backlog exists, not that we're handling it unfairly. You're welcome to join the crowd in complaining about "SteamRep is slow" but accusing us of "unfair" treatment paints a very different picture of what's going on. Can you understand how someone might perceive your allegations that way? We are doing what we can, and we strive to handle the ones we do review fairly, but at this point to guarantee every report gets reviewed in a timely manner would just be unrealistic. One the note of fairness...
    We don't review appeals out of order because someone asked us to review them in the discussion board. If we did, then the discussion board would be flooded with "review my appeal NOW" threads, and it would be unfair to others who are ahead of them in line. Same with reports, except those are handled based on a number of prioritization criteria instead of first-in-first-out. Nobody likes the backlog any more than you do, but in the interest of fairness to other appellants your request to expedite this appeal because you want to trade with him will be ignored.

    If this really is a case of a misapplied tag that needs our attention ("brother did it" cases usually don't fit that criteria), then another community admin with no vested interest in the case can address it with us and the tag will be audited. This does happen, and it does lead to cases being reviewed out of order or sometimes for tags to be adjusted/removed without a pending appeal. Unfortunately, we can't always differentiate "siblings" from alts even in an appeal. It's sad, but if 2 people are sharing the same household/computer and one of them is scamming, and we can't reliably differentiate them, then we have to tag both to warn the community. If we have no assurance the scammer will not "borrow" the unmarked account, or that the "brother" really exists, then we are obligated to provide that information to the community. As to the question about trading with the "brother", all I can say at this point in time is re-read Silent Reaper's reply, quoted below. If that answer is not good enough for you, ask again in another month.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  7. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Hey Lava,

    I'm aiming the keep it on one topic which is but I feel if your going to comment on my statements I should be able to comment on yours. I made a four paragraph statement and it was dissected to a bunch of other points by yourself and SilentR. I feel like I've cleared up most of them but there's a couple more points.

    Regarding the 3 points you quoted above.

    1 - I understand what your saying, and that SOP is not controlled by SteamRep. What I highlighted was that "A current SteamRep admin has deleted my rep" this can not be disputed, it can be said that he did it under a different banner but in the end the following statement still holds true that "A current SteamRep admin has deleted my rep" - This was said to highlight why I don't feel like I can trust the system. You are trying to argue my thoughts here. This was said with a couple other points to highlight why I personally don't feel comfortable in being forced to use the system to continue convenient trading.

    2 - I said above lets agree to disagree, but yeah my thoughts on this is that is that having a system which has the ability to ban someone (at times incorrectly) but not offer a timely appeal period is not fair, I still stand by that statement, we can have different view points on this due to perspective.

    As an example: (hypothetical)

    Lets say your a court officer and I'm a random citizen, one day a rule passes that any citizen that steals a item will be locked up for 5 years, this was done as a means to stop a epidemic of thievery.

    - Now I get locked up for Stealing (but I didn't steal and have evidence to prove it)

    - Your job in the courts is to go through appeals

    I have been locked up for 3 years and my appeal is still in a draw.

    - From my perspective this is unfair, as I have been "unfairly" affacted

    - From your perspective you could see it as a backlog

    Both view points could be valid.

    3 - You said "I'm not reviewing the cases right now, but I disagree that it's an obvious "incorrect" mark. For some context..."

    My comment was in relation to that, you are disagreeing with my viewpoint that it's an obvious incorrect mark and saying it's not an obvious incorrect mark but haven't reviewed the case. I was highlighting that if you want to debate whether or not it's an incorrect mark you should at least review the case first.

    I hope everything is cleared up now and we can move on.

    The question i asked earlier when we said we were going to focus on 1 point is below.

    "If a user is marked as banned but it's clear they are incorrectly marked due to an older process (example, they ran from a low tier spy crab 5 years ago, it wasn't reported to the community that it happened on and they have an appeal which hasn't been looked at) will there be a punishment for using your own judgement / morals in completing the trade or is every trade bound by the SteamRep ruling (correct or incorrect)."
  8. Lava

    Lava Public Relations SteamRep Admin

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    Yes, YATO (or someone at SourceOP, not necessarily him) deleted your reputation thread. Yes, he's an admin here. Stating a "SteamRep admin" deleted your reputation thread is at best misleading, because he was not acting on behalf of SteamRep. Different community, different rules. Your issue with your reputation thread is with SourceOP, why are you dragging SteamRep into it? Ad hominem much?
    Nobody ever said it's ideal, and yes the appeal backlog is one of our greatest shortcomings right now, but "unfair treatment" has a pretty different meaning than what you're using it for, and seems to be spreading misinformation that SR admins give preferential treatment. You can legitimately criticize our backlog or a number of other things, and we won't disagree with it, but one thing we do take seriously is integrity. It's really hurtful when you project us as some kind of racket that gives preferential treatment in reports or appeals, and allegations of "unfair handling" gives that image. No one will fault you for criticizing the length of our appeal backlog, but could you perhaps consider phrasing that a little differently?
    To clarify, I said it's not an "obvious incorrect mark". Exact wording, for reference:
    An "obvious" incorrect mark is something that we do expedite. An example would be an admin mistake, such as accidentally tagging the wrong person, or misunderstanding the evidence. Example expedited appeals: http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/94099 http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/65279/
    Already answered, multiple times now. Adding onto previous answer, the policy of directing users to partner communities was established less than 5 years ago, and not retroactive. Running from a spycrab is still scamming and still taggable even by SR in limited circumstances, so the change to investigative policy does not make it an "obvious incorrect mark". As said before, if that answer is not good enough for you, ask again in a month. We are not at liberty to elaborate further than what has been given right now.
  9. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    Repeating the same "accusation" (for lack of a better word) that has been answered fully by now dozens of times doesn't change those answers. That is not discussion... You are here only trying to twist somebody to get what SteamRep has no control over. In that, you are twisting our responses out of context etc.

    I called it for a serious discussion, but all its going for is twisting words, trying to get something in your way, accusations that don't match reality, etc. How is that constructive, deepening the discussion. I already called you out on going haywire with all kinds of wrongly stated issues early on, but nothing changed.

    Again I still see a bunch of different "issues" being forked together without any cohesion. Do you always drag in everybody and their mother in any form of "conflict" instead of trying to talk the issue itself?

    The core issue for you is so far that your reputation thread has been hidden/removed/deleted on SourceOP. We've told you our stance: its NOT within our partnership "agreement" of any sorts with SourceOP (and any other Partner community with that) that we tell them what to do. Its their site, and if they want to cooperate with us against scammers, great. But that is the full extend: handle scammer reports and appeals in a open and honest manner and have a set of morals regarding trading themselves (basically no scamming or abusive with trading itself etc). They are however free to change their services whatever way they please, free to ban and unban whomever they please from their services. SteamRep will NOT now, not ever, ask any partner to specifically unban someone that community doesn't want there. SteamRep MAY ask that partner to look into a case, or ask what happened, and even that is if they WANT to share that. We do NOT assume anything in whatever that community wants to share with us outside what we partnered with them for. If they do so, great, if not, fine as well. It doesn't matter that 2 of the SourceOP admins are SteamRep admins here as well. We cannot held them accountable here for what they action on at SourceOP in compliance with the rules on SourceOP.

    So yell "unfair" all you want for your reputation thread. Doesn't work. We're WAY past that station, and we've repeated it over and over.

    Its pretty much summed up by this:
    Bigmac: Its unfair, my rep thread got deleted on sourceop: do something steamrep
    SteamRep: We aren't SourceOp and aren't controlling SourceOp, and we never will.
    Bigmac: Its unfair, my rep thread got deleted on sourceop: do something steamrep
    SteamRep: We aren't SourceOp and aren't controlling SourceOp, and we never will.
    Bigmac: Its unfair, my rep thread got deleted on sourceop: do something steamrep
    SteamRep: We aren't SourceOp and aren't controlling SourceOp, and we never will.
    Bigmac: Its unfair, my rep thread got deleted on sourceop: do something steamrep
    SteamRep: We aren't SourceOp and aren't controlling SourceOp, and we never will.
    Rinse and repeat. Oh, did I mention? repeat.

    The record is stuck. Get over it, or go to the CORRECT channel (SourceOp owner/head admins) as we've told you numerous times. We cannot help you in that.

    I really wanted to close up this topic, for its another "random" thread with more (non-related) issues being mentioned (read dragged in) and wrongly stated then I care to write answers on. Its on deaf ears as well, for its not discussing them in truth in your answers as well. Lava has been trying to. But he doesn't really have time these weeks.

    As you may gathered up from above, I'm way past my patience with this thread. My advice to you? take actual communication classes, join discussions classes etc. Maybe they can teach you to improve on your communication skills and teach you how to focus a discussion and when the horse is dead, so you can stop beating it. I'm past trying to communicate with you.

    I'm tired, so "forgive" me any incorrect statements, I'll probably see them in some twisted form back. But I'm pretty annoyed it still going all over the place without any constructive "discussion" so far. You "promised" discussion... not seen it.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  10. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Lava -

    You are trying to construct an argument when my statements are both clear and fact. I wrote a simple 4 paragraph statement and you are trying to find ways to argue individual points, I have shown how you have been incorrect on a couple points and misinformed on others.

    I am trying to explain what I said as simply and clean as possible but you seem to want to continue to argue things by twisting words

    1. YOTO Deleted my Rep = A SteamRep admin deleted my Rep. This is what I said, I said nothing beyond this here. This statement is both simple and fact.
    2. From the perspective of the affected it's unfair, this statement is both simple and fact.
    3. I copied and pasted the exact text, but either way this point should be settled

    Can we move on from breaking things down now?

    My question wasn't answered clearly though, I am still unsure what to do in similar situations.

    You said "We are not at liberty to elaborate further than what has been given right now."

    How does that make anything clear if I am faced with a similar situation right now. I am asking for clarity and had questions post that thread being locked.

    --------

    If someone was obviously marked incorrectly "could be the case i highlighted" or "could be another case which is even more evident"

    If i traded them and there was nothing to suggest (before or after the trade) that they were marked correctly.

    Will I:

    - Get a marking
    - Not get a marking

    If I am faced with the scenario again and want some clarity what do I do?

    - Ask a SR admin?
    - Never trade?
    - Use your logic?
    - Never trade?

    -------------------

    SilentR I am not twisting anything... you are the one that's twisting, I have been very clear and simple in my response. You have just written a large post highlighting what you think is a core issue which is incorrect... You went on to say how you can't manage SteamRep ect. I have said multiple times in this thread I understand that yet this for some reason keeps getting mentioned.

    To clarify this again:

    I said "- had my rep deleted by a senior admin - which you turned into something else, this statement remains the truth, I did not lie.

    Did YOTO delete my rep? Yes. Is he a SteamRep Admin? Yes. As such my statement that a SteamRep admin has deleted my rep remains fact.

    You are trying to make this the core point when it's not, you are saying it's the core point of this thread, where is the evidence of that here?

    It was mentioned as part of the reasoning into why I don't trust SteamRep, which ties into the my core concern of not being able to use my judgement on who I can and can't trade with.

    I have debated things clearly and all with fact. Yourself and Lava are both twisting things.. which Lava has flat out made incorrect statements yet I am the one being said to be distorting discussion. When I am not talking about he core issue I am trying to raise I am responding to the statements you and lava are making.

    Ideally what I want cleared up is the below.
    --------------------
    If someone was obviously marked incorrectly "could be the case i highlighted" or "could be another case which is even more evident"

    If i traded them and there was nothing to suggest (before or after the trade) that they were marked correctly.

    Will I:

    - Get a marking always
    - Get a marking only if they were marked correctly
    - Not get a marking

    If I am faced with the scenario again and want some clarity what do I do?

    - Ask a SR admin for permission?
    - Never trade?
    - Use your logic?
    -------------------
  11. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Just correcting that i meant "You went on to say how you can't manage SteamRep*" - *it was meant to be SourceOP
  12. Lava

    Lava Public Relations SteamRep Admin

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    If you're complaining about your treatment on SourceOP, then why even mention he's with SteamRep? 2 different communities, 2 different sets of standards. On SourceOP, he acts like a SourceOP admin. On SteamRep, he acts like a SteamRep admin. Do you see anything worrying about his actions on SteamRep? Or are you just highlighting what he does at SourceOP to try and hold SourceOP's standards against SteamRep? Are you adding that tidbit for a sensational viewpoint perhaps, to try and make your outcry seem more legit than it really is? To rile up a group of non-traders who don't know the difference into a mob? It sure seems like it to me, and to the rest of us as well - something we like to call ad hominem.
    Heaven forbid we actually apply logic to your ranting! We should just accept that anything BigMac says about SteamRep at face value, because applying any kind of reasoning or defending ourselves against claims of corruption just distracts from poor SOPSR-Persecuted BigMac's whistleblowing on the grand conspiracy.
    We don't differentiate "marked incorrectly" cases from "totally deserved it" cases in this policy. The rules on trades with scammers, which you can read yourself, state if the person is marked then trading with them can harm your reputation. No exceptions, no asking permission, simple as that. If you have an obvious case of a misapplied tag, whether by abuse, clear mistake/misunderstanding, or whatever, you can bring it up (with the community who issued it, in case that's still unclear to you) and it will be given a quick sanity check to see if it needs to be handled quicker. We're not going to expedite appeals just because you want to trade the person though. Your options, should you run into this again in the near future, are the same as what you were already told. They are as follows:
    1. Don't trade with the person.
    2. Trade anyway, knowing it's a marked scammer, and risk a tag.
    3. Wait another month before asking again, knowing the policy is under review.
    Why are you even asking us if you don't want our answer? You know we don't give permission or exceptions to the rules.
  13. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Lava,

    To the point 1, once again I made a correct and true statement that "A SR admin has deleted my Rep" this statement holds true. Your working hard trying to discredit this statement but it's fact. As an example if you banged lucy liu then the statement "A SteamRep admin banged Lucy Liu will also be true." It's simple english and logic. I've disproved you on other points but you seem to be sticking to this 1.

    I said can we move on because I have cleared up all the points you have raised and corrected you where you were wrong.

    Gentleman said earlier "Constructive criticism is always welcome."

    This doesn't seem to be the case though, I've wrote a statement which was constructive criticism and had painted SR in an honest and bad light. It's all truth and you and SR have tried breaking it down to a million points in attempts to prove it wrong but I have cleared everything up.

    I didn't know the answer to this, and I had some thoughts on it, which is why I asked and had been trying to ask a SR admin on other forums.

    But yeah that process is clear, so to summerize

    SteamRep may at times mark people incorrectly
    Someone may be be marked on SteamRep out of process
    SteamRep may at times over punish people
    If you believe that someone is marked incorrectly, out of process or over punished you can not ask SteamRep to review it
    In the case SteamRep has marked someone incorrectly, out of process or overpunished someone you can still not trade with them without risking convenient trading

    That's concerning... but what can I do besides try and highlight this issue. It sounds like something might be coming in to fix it so I'll wait for that. Feel free to lock.
  14. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    YATO retired for a little while there... would it also be a point to say "A Retired SR admin deleted my Rep" at the time he was retired? What about if he was just taking a break for a few weeks.... would you say "A SR admin taking a break deleted my Rep"? What if he didn't physically delete the Rep, but made it unviewable by anyone in the world and appear as if it was deleted but wasn't deleted would you call it "A SR admin magically made my Rep hidden to everyone in the world"? But you stated "A SteamRep admin banged LUcy Liu while deleting my Rep".... I really don't understand that one. Perhaps we need a new thread for you to really explain that last one in depth.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  15. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Lol reaching now. Ok "A current SR admin has deleted my rep"
    Feel free to argue.

    Yes it's deleted i got a s✿✿✿ load of emails notifying me of each individual deletion.

    Ask him if he deleted it if your find it hard to believe rather than fish for an excuse.
  16. Lava

    Lava Public Relations SteamRep Admin

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    It's still ad hominem until you give a good reason why YATO's position at SteamRep is related to him doing something at SourceOP that SteamRep does not oversee. You're taking something he (may or may not have) did in his own community, with his own SourceOP website, without touching anything related to SteamRep and saying "Here's an example of how SteamRep treats users". Would you explain why that's relevant, or just admit you're just throwing it in there for sensationalism?
    You may not have figured this out yet, but SR admins are kind of busy over here with this website, and we aren't exactly active on other forums. I'm sorry you got forum-banned, but maybe you shouldn't have stalked and harassed Mattie, which if I'm not mistaken is what led to your forum ban.
    As has been pointed out, the rule about trading with scammers is under review. I'm not going to waste time defending it or otherwise beating a dead horse.

    SteamRep rarely marks people incorrectly; it happens, but it's rare, and generally caught quickly if the person appeals. No system will ever be 100% perfect. I didn't say you can't ask SteamRep to review an obvious incorrect marking. I said if you have an obvious case of a misapplied tag, you can bring it up, but we don't expedite cases and full-on review them out of order just because some high tier trader wants to make a trade with whoever is tagged. Or if you have reason to believe it needs more than a quick look and have a good reason to give it an early review, you can request a community admin, who will already have some level of access and training necessary to assess the case, bring it to us for an audit. They're probably not going to do that every time a scammer approaches you with a deal you like.
    SilentReaper(SR) and Enstage like this.
  17. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    Leves and Enstage like this.
  18. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Lava seriously you've attempted to twist this point in many directions. Unless you can prove my point wrong move on. Call it what you want but I simply stated fact. Isn't facts what SteamRep wants? Why is it so hard for you to accept this fact that you need to deny it?

    You have no idea what the trade was and if it was profit intended or anything else. You have placed assumption to suit your argument or to add extra twist. Can we please stick to facts or evidence and avoid assumptions. You tell me not to sensationalize when i present fact but you end your statement in a sensationalized manner.

    I've said what i need to say and have recieved the standard yea we know... "we have a new process coming out" "which previously has never come out when said"

    I have proven many of your statements incorrect and you have proven none of mine incorrect. Keep digging. I'll wait a month and hope these messy cases are corrected.