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Bigmac: Trades with Scammer Policy, End of Life

Discussion in 'Discussion Archive' started by BigMac187, Jan 4, 2016.

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  1. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Good to hear. I'm pretty happy to see this change.

    I didn't like the feeling that I was being forced to check SR before every trade and if SR was down then I would have to wait for it to come back up to complete a trade. (Marked previously due to this). I agree that people should still be marked if it's obvious that they are acting as a fence.
    Enstage likes this.
  2. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    I think he is more concerned about the grayness of it and he is concerned that interpretation could differ from person to person.

    As an example.

    Say a scammer was to add me and tell me "Hey dude, I have 10 unusuals I want to sell for $1000 (50 percent off backpack.tf values)" is this case markable? Keep in mind it's not uncommon for normal users to also offer the same discounts.

    From my understanding you are only going to be marking people if it's evident that they are acting as a fence. What is evidence in the eyes of SR?

    I think it can only be evident if you know for sure that funds are going from the accused fences account to the scammers, which will be impossible to get.
  3. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    SilentReaper, I think it's best to just clear up the policy in regards to SteamRep. Stating moral viewpoints and what actions can happen outside of SteamRep sort of confuses the situation when it comes to ruling.
  4. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Like to put it bluntly, people don't care about SteamReps moral viewpoints, they want to know in which situations will SteamRep mark them as banned.

    Maybe answering the below could help clear it up a little.

    If I trade 10 scammers today and keep the items will I get a marking?
    If I trade 10 scammers today and then sell those items via PayPal will I get a marking?
  5. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    That's just lacking your own moral compass.

    As for your "hypothetical" questions, both would get you marked, for you are then intentionally seeking out scammers to let them profit. You can read that in the OP. Whatever you do after with those items doesn't matter.
  6. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Please don't question my morals, I have my old solid moral, I've traded in the high thousands of $$$ without ever purposely trading a scammer. While I was marked on SteamRep for 3 months I did not complete a single trade in fears the person I trade with will be subject to a ban. My morals are strong, I am only asking for clarification in the case I felt that someone was incorrectly marked or marked out of process then I will like to know where I stand with SR if I was to complete the trade.

    The hypothetical questions are very possible future scenarios, without answering them then it leaves those scenarios unclear but you have cleared them up.

    In the case someone will like to purchase items off a scammer, is there an amount of items or value range they should avoid purchasing before they are subject to a marking?
  7. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Just to add to the above question I say this because now people are going to be able to use their own judgement on if they will like to trade scammers or not which is great. Just the issue I can see that's going to happen is.

    - There's going to be a wave of people trading with banned users
    - There's going to be a wave of people completing reports on these users

    I guess to help clarify this, when should someone report someone for completing a trade with a scammer?
  8. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Just another note, I'm not meaning to be difficult I'm just trying to highlight some issues I can see.

    I am going to assume that this is something that all partners are going to be able to be able mark for "assisting scammers in profiting"

    Do all partners have to follow a certain guideline (xxx amount of $$$ or xxx amount of trades) or will it be left to their own judgement?

    If it's left to their own judgement then there could be a issue here with inconsistent markings.
  9. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    I'm just not sure how they can have it working consistently. Ideally it should be black and white but that's not possible unless set values / amounts are given. If they are given then people are just going to trade just under those amounts. The alternative is to leave it gray but imo that's even worse as your going to get different punishments depending on which community or admin actioned it.

    There's just a lot of different cloudy areas I can see thinking about it more and i'm sure as reports come in more will be presented.

    Scammer has a craft #69 collection, your a #69 collector and will like to get the set before the scammer sells them individually as they can now do. But by the comments here you can't do that but you can buy a Burning Team Captain as it's a 1 off / dream item.

    Say I own an expensive unusuals and a scammer will like to buy it and gave me 10 items for the 1 item, if they are the best offer and I am not helping them profit can I still be marked as banned?

    I'm also a bit confused by the statement "you are then intentionally seeking out scammers to let them profit"

    Why does that matter in scam prevention now? Yes it's morally wrong but how does you not buying 10 items off them prevent scammers from selling their items when they can now sell them 1 by 1?
  10. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Is it possible that a clear guideline is given? I've raised some concerns / questions but they haven't been answered.

    There's only a bullet point in regards to this, I really think there needs to be something clear given.

    What evidence does the reporter need to provide for it to be a valid report when reporting people for partnering with scammers?
    Is there an item / value limit?
    If a user trades a scammer 5 times over a year will that be looked at different if a user traded a scammer 5 times over several months?
    Have the partner communities been given clear guidelines on what needs to be proven and what values need to be met?

    With people like ForteSP out there there's going to be reports on many different people and to many different communities. I'm getting the feeling that this could turn out to be a case by case kind of ruling which is going to end up with inconsistent rulings being handed out.
  11. Rosalina

    Rosalina New User

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    FTFY. I can't even remember the last time i reported someone (without being specifically told to by an admin who's too lazy to do it himself). Don't be salty I reported you a year ago.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  12. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    I'm not concerned about you reporting me, it's done. My tags were removed before this ruleset went into effect.

    I'm just stating that there's users like yourself that are active in reporting users.

    With the current rule set not being clear then the following scenario is likely:

    - Traders are relaxed about checking SR due to the risk of a marking being pretty low
    - Over time it is possible that they conduct trades with several different scammers, with or without knowing
    - People like yourself (active in reporting people) are going to go through trade histories looking to report people where with enough digging could find multiple instances of trades with scammers

    What is unclear is what do you need to find for a report to stick?
    What is considered as evidence of working with a scammer?
    Can you be marked for selling to a scammer instead of purchasing?

    I'm just seeing a crazy amount of variable and different scenarios of trades where it's not clear if it's a reportable offence.
    SilentR has pointed out previously that if you purchase 10 items off a scammer in a day that you will receive a marking, what if you receive 7? What about 5? What about 3?

    It really should be cleared up.
    a Gentleman likes this.
  13. Rosalina

    Rosalina New User

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    There's nothing to clear up in terms of how often. Just don't buy from scammers and you won't get banned, lol. If a scammer has some items you want, go ahead and buy them, you probably won't get banned, but if he has items you decide you want on a daily basis, then there's a case against you, because it's clear your just trying to help a scammer.

    I can name 50 users who've been banned permanently by valve because valve thinks they traded with scammers (in tf2) or brokered for a scammer. You'd be surprised...
    Antosheek and Roudydogg1 like this.
  14. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    There's heaps to clear up.

    These are the only rules:

    • Not taggable anymore. No new bans or cautions will be tracked on SteamRep for cases where a normal trader (i.e. not green tagged) trades, sells, or purchases items from a banned user.
    • Brokering still bannable. It is absolutely still the case that SteamRep and communities should ban for knowingly brokering or partnering with a scammer or hijacker. Such a ban should include evidence of active brokering for or partnering with a banned user. Evidence for these bans cannot solely focus on purchasing an item or two from a banned profile.

    By those two points it's somewhat clear to me that trading with scammers is not taggable anymore but brokering is bannable.

    I asked SilentR:

    If I trade 10 scammers today and keep the items will I get a marking?
    If I trade 10 scammers today and then sell those items via PayPal will I get a marking?

    He responded:

    As for your "hypothetical" questions, both would get you marked, for you are then intentionally seeking out scammers to let them profit. You can read that in the OP. Whatever you do after with those items doesn't matter.

    There is nothing in the rule that says you can be marked for "intentionally seeking out scammers" it says you can be marked for brokering. His statement goes against the first point where it says it's Not taggable anymore where he has indicated that it (even without evidence of brokering)

    Can you now see how it's confusing as the rules are saying one thing but Reps are saying another.
  15. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    Keep in mind that if I "trade 10 scammers today and keep the items" then this clear evidence of non brokering. As the items have not been sold.

    But him saying that you can be banned for that renders this point invalid. "Not taggable anymore. No new bans or cautions will be tracked on SteamRep for cases where a normal trader (i.e. not green tagged) trades, sells, or purchases items from a banned user."
  16. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    You do realize that regardless of what answer we give you for whatever question you ask you are going to nicpic it and look for any and all loop holes you can find or well imagin up to the point its a constant broken record of replies.

    Can't you just be happy about this change and go about your business?
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  17. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    I'm only asking for clarity.

    If it's clear the I won't have any questions. I'm very happy about the change but I'm not happy about the non clarity in the rules and I can see issues that no clear rules can give.

    Like as I said above the rule is clear in saying one thing but the comments of SilentR go against that rule.

    Don't you think the rules should be clear?
  18. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    Looks pretty darn clear to me as is. There could be an outline 40pages deep to "clarify" everything sub paragraph B of sub section R12, 3rd sentence down etc etc...but regardless of doing that it won't matter something will be pointed out, ridiculed or loop holed to death that its best to leave as is for the time being as its pretty clear now.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  19. BigMac187

    BigMac187 New User

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    It's not:

    - Not taggable anymore. No new bans or cautions will be tracked on SteamRep for cases where a normal trader (i.e. not green tagged) trades, sells, or purchases items from a banned user.

    This seems pretty clear that it's not taggable anymore.. right? or am i missing something in the meaning here.

    Beyond this SilentR has said it is still taggable as if you trade a scammer for 10 items then you will be marked.

    Which is correct, the ruling or the statement?
  20. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    There is a lot more to the policy change... don't break things out of context. Still looks pretty clear to me and very well received by most that I can tell.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
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