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Discussing policy (TL;DR at the end)

Discussion in 'SteamRep General Discussion' started by DangerouS_KinG, Jun 18, 2022.

  1. DangerouS_KinG

    DangerouS_KinG New User

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    Hello.

    So I made a post yesterday that was Declined due to being in different language rather than English AND because it had some initial messages outside of steam chat.

    I did a few chitchat with the Admin that declined my post, and in the chat he mentioned that the policy about languages changed in a few years before and also that the change was for the BETTER.
    I was curious about how's that for the better and all that, but he end up not responding (I don't know, probably too much work ahead of him).
    Eitherway, it got me thinking, how's that change for the better ? The only better thing I am thinking of is the layoff work you leave for not trying to translate the text to English. Other than that, I don't see this "better" reason of it.

    That was my first thought about the declined post, but he also mentioned that, even if the chat were in English, it would not be accepted because it had some chats on twitch, which is outside of steam. And it got me thinking, again.. How's this work or how's this a policy rule ? Best case scenario, should give extra evidence for the final reviewer to take its verdict, no ?
    This one brought up a lot of question in me. For instance, how can one garantee that one post by one guy was made purely on steam ? How can one garantee that there wasn't a "Hello" message on like discord and then they end up on steam, and OP only screenshots the steam chat ?
    Because, in my last post (the one that got declined), it started on twitch, but I was only about to screenshot the steam chat. I then remembered and thought it would be a good idea (and also more evidence = easier to make judgement) to send screenshots of twitch chat too.
    My question for this one is.. why? Why's this insta rejected ? I can see some cases where you use MOST of the conversation on other platforms different from steam, and that's okay I guess, but other than that, why not judging the chats to see if it makes sense for the veridict ?

    In the PM with the Admin, I also mentioned my old posts that were in Portuguese that were accepted and if it were right now they weren't because of the policy changes.

    I may be wrong, but I felt that from all this changes I didn't knew about the policy and comparing it on my previous post experience, I feel like SteamRep have been slacking off, and that have been changing policy to reduce their work load, because with many people submiting their posts, for them to go one by one it would take them much time to review each and every single post.
    Only that explains why the policy changes were for the better (talking about the language one here).

    My suggestion for this, is what I think it would solve the work load problem and still accept other languages is to let the original poster do the translation by editing the images with text side by side, OR make a video reading the text outloud on english.
    I 100% would do this if it was necessary. I'd do all that's necessary in order for the scammer don't have the final laugh.

    Anyhow, with all this I just hate to not being able to do anything to this scammer kid since SteamRep was my only "go-to" in order to make justice. And also I did check the profile guy on SteamRep in order to check is Rep.. and it said nothing, which helped him gaining my trust. And with his high level, many comments, many skins (most likely scammed), hate to see him untouched by either Valve or SteamRep.

    Thank you for your time and attention for reading this :)

    TL;DR:
    Made a post that was declined.
    The reasons were: 1- Some new policy changes about language; 2- Some chats were made outside of Steam.
    It didn't make sense to me, so I wanted to know why.
    Created this post to ask why and make some suggestions.
  2. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    SteamRep Admin:
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    Keep in mind that you can ask questions about policy however just make sure you are not arguing the out come of your report which appears you are.
    https://forums.steamrep.com/threads/general-discussion-faq.132723/
    #3

    As for the report - I answered your questions in PM's as best as I could.
    We no longer review any such languages in reports or its evidence and in the policy it notes you can take such reports to a partner community if you wish to do so that may in fact work that language.
    A list is on the front page of Steamrep.com.
    I also informed you to use the search feature here as the question was raised and answered before however here is the most recent link to such question related to language policy.
    https://forums.steamrep.com/threads/report-a-scam-different-language.180620/

    If you wish to discuss your report outcome you already have a PM with me on that which I believe I covered as to why but it won't be discussed here in this thread or others in the general forum section since that is a violation of FAQ #3 as noted above.


    For future users that use the search feature - here are the policies in question/guides and such so they can be read prior to report submissions.
    https://forums.steamrep.com/threads/report-submission-fundamentals.169802/
    https://forums.steamrep.com/threads/screenshot-guide-requirements.157969/
    https://forums.steamrep.com/threads/steamrep-investigative-policy.140101/
  3. DangerouS_KinG

    DangerouS_KinG New User

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    Don't get me wrong, I was just giving out my post as an example to discuss the policy. I know the out come of the report is final and with the current policy you have 100% right to do so. I 100% understand this, and I already don't care if the report is accepted or no.
    All I want now is to understand the reason behind the policy and what was the thinking behind changing the policy. This is where I don't agree with, and that's what I'm discussing to see if it makes sense in my head as it makes in yours. If anything, I'm trying change the policy itself, which I doubt that would be possible.

    On the PM's I made some questions about it, which you left them unanswered. Since I thought you end up not wanting to talk more about the topic, I decided to ask around other possible Admins or people that are into the policy done on SteamRep.
    And once again, as your Rule #3, forget my report, I want to talk about the SteamRep policy in order for it to make sense to me. So can you awnser my many questions I have on this post ?

    At the end of the day, all I want is for justice to be made, and so I will 100% check the "f-o-g.trade" website, that was linked on the URL you sent, and make a post there. It's not as well known as SteamRep, but if it helps at the end of the day, I will do it.

    Thank you.
  4. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    Lava answered it rather well on that thread I gave you.
    https://forums.steamrep.com/threads/report-a-scam-different-language.180620/

    I get busy like everyone else and had things to do, other reports to handle etc... I may come back to it after I reply to the others I have and other things I have going on is completed.
    Be patient.

    Once again - Lava replied with a very good reason/answer on that thread above. The policy won't be changed any time soon since it has been working rather well since it was added years ago with the partners handling a few that they can.

    Your priorities are all wrong here - Steamrep is NOT here to punish anyone - we are not here to take "justice out" on anyone.... our goal is education which is why those guides/links/policies are there to be read and we hope managed by those that not only use them for trading safer but also for reporting purposes here. We do not do things here to punish people so if that is what you are after it isn't to be found here. We can not stop users from trading either - only Valve can do that so if you haven't submitted a report to them then you can still do that.
  5. DangerouS_KinG

    DangerouS_KinG New User

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    I give 0 tolerance to dishonest people. So if a scammer comes up to me and tries to scam me, I'll do whatever it takes to "stain" his reputation and unmask his fake "legit" profile. SteamRep gives almost what I want since it gives the next victim a chance to be warn about a possible scammer. Valve can ban the scammers sure, but until valve bans the scammer, how much poor people do you think that is going to get scammed ? That's where, in my opinion, SteamRep takes a big role here. When I say, justice to be made, is to a point where his "brand" in this case, his fake "legit" profile gets marked as scammer for all the people to see. Its almost as bad as getting banned, that's why I say it punish them.

    This is not what's on SteamRep FAQ (https://forums.steamrep.com/pages/faq/):
    upload_2022-6-19_0-27-14.png
    The main function of SteamRep, as it say on the FAQ is to:
    So like I was saying, it gives people a way to check the suspect history/reputation. If this website were purely made for education, it would have nothing more than a simple Google or YouTube search for tips on how to not get scammed.

    About the language policy. The SteamRep Admin Lava said the following:
    Its 100% understandable, we are all humans here, and we can't make the impossible as to give 1001 posts to review in foreign languages for like a few Admins. It would take it very long and would "clutter" the website resulting in a queue (probably) that would keeps on rising.
    As I understand this, I don't understand why you said:
    Good for the sake of who ? As I feel that was good for the admins that would take heavy load of their backs, it was bad for the website since it limits their scams/scammers to only English, leaving all the remaining foreign languages scammers free to do whatever they want.
    Simple solutions on this would be: get more trustful people to do the translation and pass the review to the next level superior (as in, for example, Official Translator>Reviewer>Admin). Another solution would be to let the own OP to do the translation to English, and this way it could also had someone to verify its integrity or even the Admin (such as, for example, OP (translation)>Translation Verification Mod>Admin. Or even, OP (translation)>Admin). What's your opinion on this ?
  6. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    Our main objective is education - not punishment of any sort. Yes we do take reports so that those reports can educate others be it for the one making the report or the one the report is against. Some people will see a report you made for example and not want to deal with you in fear you will run off and report them for any reason... our reports stay up and are not deleted to maintain transparency and not everyone wants to even take that chance so even the one making the report is looked upon when someone uses SR.
    Reports are serious - so those against someone and are not properly submitted just to make one isn't fair to the accused without proper evidence. Even if someone is tagged it isn't going to stop them from trading..already noted this. You can accuse someone and call them a scammer all you like but unless the evidence is provided properly and by the book here then we won't accept the report. It isn't fair to ones being reported if someone just submits one against them that doesn't prove anything and is just they said vs they said. Someone could report you with all sorts of images, posting some long paragraph winded note saying they are a scammer they have 0 tolerance against them - punish them bad bad bad and I'm sure you would be rather upset if we accepted a report against you and tagged you for things we simply can't prove or disprove. 100% .... when we are 100% sure the evidence is properly made and conclusive for a tag then and only then will a report be accepted to be fair to all parties. The accused then has a chance to appeal that tag per even more policies created for that process.

    The change was for the good to allow us to focus on the reports we can review - before it was an issue time and time again. We do not see changing this policy any time soon as we do not have the staff able to sustain it. So we note you can review such things with those partners that are listed. We can not review everything, it just simply is impossible so we have to have limits on what we can and can not review.
  7. DangerouS_KinG

    DangerouS_KinG New User

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    I think we are saying the same thing with different names. For example, when a little boy does something bad (bad beahviour or something like that), what does parents tend to do ? They punish the children with (now depends on the situation) like, a slap or take away his Playstation or something like that. In general that's called education.
    My view of punishment in this context is precisely that, to "mark" the scammer up in order to "cut his tail off" (as not being able to continue to use their account to scam more people). In this way, all possible victims next can know (or as you said, be educated) what's ahead of them. I prefer the word punish as its like a word who results in a consequence of a bad action. Education, in my view, is something more general.

    Now about the situation where one makes a report against someone who's innocent and the report is accepted. I agree that this is a major problem. But for this situation to happen, there should be one of these situations:
    • The OP thinks the other guy is a scammer when he's not. This is the most likely to happen and, in my view, happens when they (obviously) don't trust each other, and the innocent "scammer" fails to prove that he's not a scammer. For a normal conversation (with normal I mean a conversation where none of the sides want so scam each other) went for one of the side think that the other are trying to scam, they probably didn't agree on some parts or something, to the point that the OP (prematurely) made a report. This AND for the Admin, after reading the report, think that the other innocent "scammer" wanted to scam, should reconsidered whether or not to be an Admin. I think this usually don't happen (can be wrong), since the scams are usually one sided. What I mean by this is, the chats are usually one side try to scam the other, and so it should be easy enough, by analyzing the conversation, to detect which side is trying to "force"/deceive the other. If an Admin doesn't have the sensibility to notice this, in my opinion, it shouldn't be an Admin.
    • The OP photoshops the conversations in order to screw the innocent over. As I think this rarely happens, it can happen when a dishonest guy wants to screw the other guy because yes and because he don't like the other. This situation is, in my opinion, the hardest to deal with. Let me ask, how do you know that 100% of the reports are legit ? That they are not photoshoped ? How can you assure that the OP isn't a photoshop pro and it's doing it perfectly in order to screw the innocent over ? Unless its screen capture by video (and even then, it can be edited but it's way harder to do it so), you can't tell if the reports are legit or not. And by legit I say if the words are words said, and not photoshoped.
    If it happens to me or anyone else, what I would do is, of course, appeal to your website. It would be, as you said, my words VS their words. Its impossible to know and it's indeed a very complicated situation.
    Eitherway, my solution to this would be to have the reputation do its work. What I mean by this is, lets say for example a person called A that is very honest person, is confronted with this person called B which is a very dishonest person. Person B decides to make a fake report on SteamRep against person A because he don't likes him. Report is, somehow, accepted. Now, the thing is, person A has 0 reports of other people against him. Person B has many other reports against him, even thought this reports were not accepted by some policies or rejected for insufficient evidence. Now I ask you, who do you think has more credibility? Person A or person B ?
    Now you ask, sure but person B can also spam reports against person A with many fake accounts (Person C, D, E, ...). Its true, but how do you think these conversations would sound like ? Wouldn't the conversations be sort of weird ? And also, the person A would try to appeal that someone might be spamming him with fake reports and give a heads up to SteamRep in order for SteamRep to clean his reputation. And by clean his reputation is to clean this fake reports which would mess with this decision making of checking the reputation of these person to see if they have many reports against them or not.
    I think this would solve many problems. I know the current state of SteamRep doesn't show them at the person in question profile (only the accepted reports), but its one suggestion that I would gladly suggest for this website.

    100% understand this and agree. But in my opinion for this, as I said earlier:
    By the way, sorry if my English is not 100% understandable as this is not my main language.

    Thank you.
  8. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    SteamRep Admin:
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    We are here for educational purposes, our guides, policies and reports even provide tools for those that are trading to use to determine if they wish to trade with any certain person be it the Op that made a report or the one a report was against or if a guide points them into a certain direction to be mindful of the situation then great it helped and it educated.

    We have people that make reports just to make reports... adding useless evidence such as photos of spongebob...is that fair to the accused? Absolutely not since we don't delete reports so we try to respond in a manner before Declining said report that the accused was not found guilty of any wrong doing here per policy which reflects a number of reasons such as improper evidence.
    We didn't make that determination as a judgement call...we used our set policies that we developed over years of time and for many reasons to Decline the report.
    Did the Op make it up? We don't know they did or didn't....they they submit fake evidence? Perhaps but who knows when its just an image of a car, boat..something completely unrelated. You would be rather upset if someone did this to you at which many have and I've fielded many many PM's over the last 8 or so years since I've been doing this for well over 40,000 reports.. you do the math.
    We do not issue tags, we do not accept reports without the evidence and the report showing 100%. We've seen so many scams, attempts, methods, comments, phrases that are used by those making reports over the years that the experience alone helps with making a definitive outcome. The fake evidence bit you noted that rarely happens... happens more times than you think and we HOPE we catch them all but we are not perfect so with the help of our devised policies it allows us to prevent mishaps from happening and we apply policy to the outcome.
    If we make a mistake hopefully we catch it rather quickly and learn upon it..I've made some and made notes to myself and try to prevent it from happening again.

    Your "many reports" doesn't mean nothing - I can name several users right now that were spam reported by friends of friends with all sorts of reasons. I sure hope people don't generally look at report count and in fact take the time to read them completely. Rather unfair to the accused if someone just counts reports against them and not the outcomes. Book judged by its cover anyone?
    Our reports here/tags/status isn't a reflection of credibility either or status so to speak, all of this is used for educational purposes to allow someone to again read everything and make their own judgement call with the hopes they don't all think negatively. There is no appeal process for reports just submitted against someone - we don't remove/delete content or reports so if they are in fact fake and we don't have enough data to support that reason then the reports remain and we hope that with the added note I mentioned earlier in this likely final reply, will allow someone to know that the accused wasn't found guilty of any wrong doing based on what was provided per policy.

    We have a ton of suggestions and will keep this one in mind so thanks for the questioning and the suggestions.
    There are many many more things that are needed prior to adjusting policies at this time so if we get to this point and it comes up we will surely let you and everyone else know in a site wide announcement.
    Thanks again for all this we will strive to continue what good work we've all done here and hope that traders like yourself learn from your past experiences and prevent fraudulent activities in the future!
    have a nice day!
    :)
    Roudydogg1 likes this.
  9. DangerouS_KinG

    DangerouS_KinG New User

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    Okay so you can say that you give out education by giving guides, policies and all that, but does people really open up SteamRep to check up on that ?
    Well I don't know about other people but the way I use SteamRep is very simple: Open up SteamRep, input steam url of suspect, see the suspect reputation, and that's it. Exacly how SteamRep FAQ says on how it works. Now you could say that I've been educated now that I know what's the person's Rep, but calling that education is just weird to me. I see education as something you acquire in a long run (like a parent educating a child). Not for simple check ups like this.
    I'm now interested to know how most of the people uses SteamRep. I can bet you can educate some people that actually reads your guides and that, but I bet most of them uses purely for Rep checking.

    Of course not. On Internet anyone should know that there's trollers/spammers everywhere and one (website, platform, anything online, ...) should be prepared to deal with them. And these reports should be considered as not even reports. The reports I was talking about when I said to check the Person's reports to see if it had many activity behind him, was legit reports that were very close to be accepted but they weren't because there's not enough evidence or something else didn't make sense. I'm talking about adding a history of reports that were AT LEAST plausible... not some troller/spammer's report. These are the ones that should be added on a person's profile saying something like:
    Reports accusing Person A: 0
    Reports accusing Person B: 8
    ...​
    Since these reports weren't enough for the person to get Banned but they stay there to help people know that other people found this person's weird in order to the first person be careful. Like almost what this "Caution" mark that's on SteamFaq:
    upload_2022-6-19_21-5-29.png
    I don't know how this are given, I think is when you are reviewing a report right ? Not sure.


    When I talked about submiting fake evidence, I was obviously talking about the ones that make the fakes sound like legit. The people that changes the context or even create a context (by that I mean literally photoshopping the chats) in order for the other person to get banned. I never, ever, on my previous replies even considered OR even thought on trollers/spammers reports. I don't even call these reports. These should be insta deleted/ignored and not be counted for a person's reports history.


    Why not though ? Reports, besides the trolls one, should reflect on how much the people was involved in fishy deals. Probably because I'm don't have the experience you have, but I can only see good things on it. Seeing a person's profile full of reports that weren't accepted should give up a red flag (or as you say educate :p) the person who are searching for that profile. Its strange also if a profile is full of reports and none of them were accepted. It shows that the person is chatting too much and all those chats are a reason for a report but the report is always a failure. These types of scenarios are very weird and these are the ones that should be reviewed extensively. Perhaps it's always the same person talking to that one guy (?), but if there's multiple people talking to one guy, this one guy doesn't seem strange to him ? Doesn't he raise a red flag on this, or simple stop talking if there's like, everyday, different people talking to them (?).

    I don't know and perhaps this is why I'm not seeing things as you are. I'm not experienced as you are, of course, but for me learning with you and discussing it, I can get to learn more about it (and educate) :)

    Thank you!