Fake rep on steam profiles!

I did not come to the thread to decide whether he was a scammer, I came because the front page has a huge notice that clearly states:

ALERT: Any rep on your Steam profile must be assumed to be fake! Trusted sellers will not value any Steam profile rep because it is trivial to fake.

I apologize for voicing my concern and asking a question about the notice on the front page as it seems to say "ANY RP ON YOUR STEAM PROFILE" rather than, "come and take a look at this profile and see why he's a scammer".

I think it's kinda crazy they were marked with caution so quickly when reports I've made have sat for months with one or two replies and no action despite they probably have more proof than "He left a +rep on a scammer's profile!"

Yeah, wording could have some adjustment, I'll look into it after I did my round.

I just want to add something here. I am not talking about this particular case and I am glad that DataStorm is very compromising in his expedited solution to the "colatteral damage" situation, however I thing it's still wrong what happened in some way. I am not offering a solution but rather wouldn't mind talking in open forum about this policy. You state that you had to tag all accounts as ALT rep providers with a caution. This works against the whole purpose of the trust that is put into steamrep where we try to let a fair judging body reside over conflicts, fraud reports and the sort. Is it not a case of taking due diligence in investigating the case that we trust you guys? I understand the back log, and I always attributed it to the time and effort you take to fully investigate each case and not "rush" it with a tag just for the sake of clearing back log. I think most of us have been patient with the back log for that reason and that reason alone. In this case, you chose to hastily assume that all rep left was fake. Should you (or whoever resides on the investigation) not have taken the time to review the accounts leaving the rep, one at a time? Perhaps confront them for proof of a valid trade (not rep farming) before clustering all the rep providers into an assumed category of fake reppers? In this community people have learned that even a caution tag is a serious marker (I have had a few people decline trading with me until they read my case in full and me plead the reason for my tag without hiding any facts) and I think that you should take more care handing out caution tags. It's not always the right thing to "patch" a problem with only a caution tag. These caution tags have more implication that you may have realized or care to advertise. Some communities have banned people simply for having caution tags. I got banned from mannco trading for only having a caution tag, not even a scammer tag. So please take more caution in handing them out. Otherwise I DO support you guys and love the hard work you do. Even though I have a caution tag here I still support and help in any way I can because you are the foremost authority in the community when it comes to help prevent scamming.

In this case it was very blatant and clear, 6 day old account with 28 rep. The implications:
- Account is a obvious alt of a scammer. (even without a mark)
- There is no possible way a majority of those reps could have been legit. Not with 9 scammers in that list.

The rules say trading with a scammer gives one a Caution tag, AND trading with a OBVIOUS ALT gives such tag.

I only chose to give everybody the mayority of the type of offense.

The only shortcut was therefore such, that the offense on 1 or 2 accounts may have been different then what was stated. So instead of fake rep, they traded with a obvious Scammer Alt account. So in Almier's case it was his Trading with a scammer appeal. He's been warned with this to not trade with scammers, and his tag is 1 step lowered (warning).

So whats the fault?

When my sister in law first got into trading, I had helped her in the first 3 days conduct over 100 trades. I was going through my case and she decided to give trading a try. I guess you can say I was her "alt" in some ways but technically she was a clean new trader which never scammed anyone, never took items from me in order to start her account. I simply gave her a crash course on paypal trading because she liked how much I was profiting doing it. She invested cash into the game on day 1. Bought 3 backpacks off sourceop by day 2 and has managed to trade on outpost over 100 trades in those 2 weeks my account was down. She did her own trades, her own money and she had WAY more then a page full of rep both on sourceop and on steam account. Yet her account was under 1 week old. This is a rarer situation where someone works with someone to build an account up quickly. It does NOT mean that this was the case here and like you said. Majority of them WERE fake and deserved the tag, however I always trusted that you guys always took the time to study one by one and make sure that only a "proven" guilty party gets a tag. Ultimately, if it smells like a duck, quacks like a duck.... well it may be a duck, or .... it may be a hunter waiting to catch his game. That's all I am saying. If you guys simply skimmed through all the scam reports and started mass flagging the categorized reports then I with the rest of the community will quickly lose trust in your system. The reason you are the foremost authority in the community is your unwavering approach. This to me seems like either a slip up, or simply an overlooked assumption that needs to be re-evaluated and prevented from happening in the future.

I was ripped off by a guy whom did just this : http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/repeat-scammer-76561198072482850.13514/

I'm glad there is more awareness and that some action is being taken to hurt these "rep" comments, I was new to trading and had just struck it big only to lose big because I fell for the "x many people can't be wrong". Everything told me not to follow through with this trade but his most convincing argument was that he has well over 6 pages of rep via steam and so a sucker was born.

While still gullible had I read this back then I would have known better than to trust what at the time I thought was hard to fake.

1 exception in here didn't devalue my assessment of what that account was.

and on your sisters account, without a report, I would have acted way more cautiously, checking (again) all the reps. And I would have found none, or maybe 1-2 marked scammers, and I would have found backpack changes etc. The situations match only partially. My guess is that you need to look into better recognizing alts. For really, you don't need SR to do so. (well, to check out the rep-givers, and preferably old ones, I did 'm ALL).

Hi guys. I'm Mr. Bonk, one of the 28 accounts marked as a caution. I've been playing this game for a little over 2 years now. I've never logged into this website before, and I'm rather confused how me doing a legitimate trade with someone can count me as caution. I've been playing actively, I trade a LOT, and 9/10 trades, i'll leave a nice rep comment. I'm flabbergasted that me being the trader I am can have HIS trading experiences minimized because a person that he traded with traded with another person who got scammed. That's like you giving someone a high five, then that person gives someone else a high five and the person he high-fived breaks his hand, but the initial high-fiver is charged *sorry for such a bad example*. The scammer that goes by "Alon Berger" also left a comment on my profile. I'm not his alt, and I wasn't "fake repping". We did a legitimate trade. Once again, flabbergasted. Now that i'm "aware" that i'm caution, i'll be checking every single person that I scrapbanks for steam rep even if it doesn't exist. - Bonk.

If you traded with him in good faith, you should make an appeal here: http://forums.steamrep.com/forums/appeal/
Make sure you submit your appeal in the proper format as described here: http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/howto-appeal-scammer-and-caution-reputation-tags.58/

I'm flabbergasted you believe using Steam's automated trading system concerning mere item-to-item trades warrants a +rep. Efficient use of the "Make Trade" button raises someones trust in trading? If I trade with you a few times, I'll put what you want in my trade box and you put what I want in your trade box, can you put in a nice rep comment that I can use the Steam automated trade system properly? There is absolutely no trust/reputation accrued from using a safeguarded system where there is a 99.999% Valve guarantee that the items you see is what you get. What's been interesting is that non-cash traders don't see this, actual reputation and trust in trading (where there is an actual element of risk) is foreign to them in this regard.

Among other things, item-to-item traders started doing this rubbish of steam profile rep for trades because they wanted to gain trade 'reputation' when they see legitimate CASH traders accruing the same rep and/or by linking an SOP thread. Steam profile rep is incredibly crude. At first blush, in my eyes, all steam profile rep is fake. Easy to manipulate, it has absolutely no worth and should not be given any.

Your +rep comment for item-to-item trades degrades actual rep where trust is involved. You jeopardise other traders by soliciting this form of rep. It is more than warranted by us to write this form of rep off as fake. Our service is to the community, we never lose this mentality and we will fiercely defend traders from negative trade behaviour. Again, I will not be surprised if these concepts are foreign to yourself. I would probably urge you to read our Expanded FAQ section as well as the OP of this thread. And the "What Constitutes Rep" thread which has been linked ad nauseum.

Not ONCE did I state that it is used for trading that requires trust. So you're saying, that if the trader was "fast and friendly" i'm not allowed to state that on the users profile to show other people what other peoples experience was like? That's preposterous!

Like I said, I completely understand that concepts in cash trading may be foreign to you. By all means state he is 'fast and friendly' or how great his personality is and how he made you feel special after you traded items. However, the '+rep'? What reputation is to be gained that he is 'fast and friendly'? 99% of traders can emulate that exact description merely by using the Valve guaranteed item trading system.

Lets do a 'fast and friendly' trade right now, +rep me yeh? Scrap bank, 2 craftable weps for 1 scrap. Scrap bank every poster in this thread and +rep all of us for the efficiency of trading 2 weps for 1 scrap using the protected Steam trading system. If traders were to solicit rep the way you have, can you start to see where this can be exploited by scammers who have every intention to leverage your cheap approval? This textbook example is why steam profile rep is useless. Feedback of a trade such as 'fast and friendly' is unreliable and is prima facie, not rep, you are using a trading platform where every trader can give you that result without trying. When this is tied to CASH trading where reputation and trust are synonymous, this is where this type of rep has a serious detriment to new traders where scammers can exploit fake rep to initiate confidence scams on high $$ value items such as unusuals.

Have you read my paragraph about how this degrades actual legitimate trust based rep? Before you respond, I urge you to read through all our FAQs before you post. We do not aim to regulate the autonomy of how traders interact nor do we lack basic common sense. If you want to make a point, please make it an informed one.

You're right. I never really looked at it this way, nor did I really think about what rep is actually used for. I ALWAYS thought that profile rep was just profile rep, and that the only rep that was needed for "cash transactions" was rep that was supplied here. I've NEVER logged into this website and don't know how the reputation system works. Sorry for lacking common sense or thinking. I'll go post an appeal when I have a window of time.

I never said you lacked common sense. I completely understand where your responses are coming from since you have never heard of our site. I meant WE at Steamrep do not lack basic common sense, in our appeal process we will discern all factors concerning whether your tag is justified. We totally understand certain traders like to leave feedback of their experience with a person. However as a quick remedial safeguard, we will mark accordingly for the protection of the community if we believe it is warranted. This is what we have actioned in this case. Please by all means lodge an appeal, make sure to follow the correct format!

I've been reading through all of the information and posts on this thread, and I still have several queries that I would like to put forward, because this remains somewhat unclear to me.

1. Can I be marked with a caution/scammer tag for leaving or receiving +rep from any steam user via my profile page that is marked as a scammer if the profile rep was given prior to their demarcation as a scammer?

2. Would it then be advisable to remove all comments pertaining to reputation of any sort on my profile page?

Some traders do it as a gesture of goodwill and appreciation, and I have received some rep as well as given some rep via the steam profiles prior to this bulletin, not to facilitate any actual cash trades, but just as a sort of positive feedback about the trader in general. I did not intend to deceive any traders into believing I am experienced in cash trading (Which I abstain from entirely.)

3. As I cannot possibly remove all my comments that I have ever posted on other user's pages, what can I do to indemnify myself from action that may be undertaken as a result of my receiving rep or leaving reputation from individuals who have since become marked as scammers?

I realy do believe you should listen to us normal traders abit on this one. No, i don't do money trades, but i do trade on a daily base.
I mean, this IS looking like a witch hunt on us, honest traders, instead of going for scammers. I do realise what the whole meaning behind these actions is, you are only trying to inform/protect traders from only looking at the "+rep posts" on a steam profile, because it is far from reliable.

But things like:
http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/marcel-the-shell-steam_0-0-40599572-suspected-scammer-alt.16439/
http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/76561198015753790-morton-sr-scammer.15022/
http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/76561198056648004-armoured-★respite★™-sr-caution.16357/
http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/76561198064990468-sick-my-duck-sr-caution.16180/
(I could keep filling this list, but i guess i made my point...)

What is up with that? Just tagging ppl because they + repped someone who is a tagged "scammer later on"/alt/using alts to rep himself?
I mean, i just did a trade, and +repped the guy on his profile, because he was rly nice. I always do that with ppl which i liked, so this means i should be afraid now? And no, if I trade a tuxxy for 3 keys, or trade 12 Tour of Duty tickets for 6 keys, i will not check who i am trading. why should i? I got my Keys, he got his tickets, don't see why i should start running background checks (what's his trading history, who did he trade before, i should better check every person who + repped him, would he have alts, he has a scamming friend, better check that out too...). I mean, cmon, this is in no way helping the trading community forward.

In my (personal) opinion, you should only tag people if you are ABSOLUTELY SURE they are alt accounts of scammers, not just anyone who wrote "+rep" on any page. Might as well start tagging everyone who has a scammer friend in his list, or who chats with a scammer...

Again, i do agree with the fact no-one should help scammers in any way! But before you tag someone as "caution" or "scammer", maybe take a quick look at their trading history first... Was this his first trade with this person? Did he trade scammers before? What items did he trade? Does he trade allot?

Did you read ANYTHING past the FIRST line in the OP I wrote?

I understand your point DataStorm but what I am wondering about is how can you expect us to investigate every trade beyond the intial assessment. At my peak (I took a break for a while and am starting to get back into it) I made more then 100 trades a day. I can not imagine you expect me to check every scrap banker or hat trader I come across. When I buy backpacks or high ticket items I do my homework but someone posting on my outpost saying that they want to buy my outdoorsman for 1.66 ref, I am not going to go through the efforts of having to investigate them for being a scammer. It's not practical and should not be held against me. I admit that if my actions look suspicious I should be warned / notified to clarify but to instantly tag me with a caution for it on a site that yields so much power and respect out of the community just shows slight haste / ignorance (if I may be so bold as to say) towards the power you wield. Again, I respect this site and have helped any way possible and am always boasting how great this site is to everyone I come across, but I still would love to see more care taken (more in depth research) done when you assign a tag. Yes, you will be right 9/10 times but that is not good enough. You have to be right 100% of the time (or right based on the evidence you had at the time. New evidence can always overturn a judgement, hence the appeal section). But before a tag is issued it must be a proven beyond a reasonable doubt type of conviction. Even for caution tags. Assessing the type of trade that occured should play a factor in determining if the person was aware they were trading with a scammer. If a scammer is scrap banking (scammers dont only scam, they simply dont understand fully right from wrong, but are still active members in regular trading in the community) and I traded with them not knowing they are a marked scammer I should not be caution tagged for "supporting" a scammer. I know its a little far fetched but I hope you see my point.

"Initial assesment"...
I look at the guys profile, and first thing I see is join date December 1st 2012.... Thats a pretty huge sign for a alt. Only AFTER a deeper research I can conclude it may not be.

Turning it upside down with exceptions/examples doesn't do anything. Situation wasn't the same.

I think you are missing my point. I agree with you that you were right to assess the account as an alt. I also agree that almost all of the reps given were fake to establish a bogus account. Does that mean that every rep is a bogus one? No. It means that while most are and most will get a mark of alt, further investigation or a quick post to their profile warning of a caution tag unless they appeal to the report on steamrep would have clarified all this. It's not like anyone who cares would've ignores your comment. Perhaps leaving all the comment posters a link to the case and saying something like : You have been implicated in fake repping. If this was done in error, please respond to this case within 24 hours with your appeal. Let the judging admin hear the appeals BEFORE handing out the cautions. It is no different them sending a court summons to any implicated party before convicting them in a group crime.