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How save are Paypal trades with steamrep.com middleman?

Discussion in 'SteamRep General Discussion' started by Xycopath =D, Oct 18, 2013.

  1. Xycopath =D

    Xycopath =D New User

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    First of all I want to say sorry for my bad english.

    Ok now topic:
    Lets say I use Jerry for middleman for a DC Hook trade for 180€. (I get the money paypal)
    But then 1 day later the scammer (here Mr. Y) cancels the bank transfer.

    What really can one do ?
    1st: Is this still possible? (cancel banktransaction)
    2nd: The only way to get the money back is go to judge?
    2,5: Is there even a way to completely hide the own identety (here Mr. Y even though he can transfer money via paypal?)
  2. Mattie!

    Mattie! SteamRep Admin

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    Unfortunately, a middleman cannot protect you from chargebacks. That risk is entirely held by the seller.

    1. Yes, they can cancel a payment made by PayPal. But not if you use MoneyPak or Bitcoin or similar.
    2. You can use PayPal's dispute process and/or go to a judge.
    2.5: Yes, they could be using a hacked PayPal account or credit card (so the identity is wrong).
    Xycopath =D likes this.
  3. CanadianInvasion

    CanadianInvasion Retired Staff

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    The purpose of a middleman for the purposes of Steam trading is to prevent any initial non-payment by either party. For the reasons Mattie mentioned above, the seller of the item(s) assumes all risks associated from fraudulent money transactions. The legal status of such things is in limbo (according to United States law at least) regarding the validity of virtual items as "goods".

    Some common issues I see associated with traders doing PayPal trading:
    1) Having someone leave a note stating "I will not charge back, this is for virtual goods..." or something to that extent offers ABSOLUTELY NO PROTECTION against a chargeback. Notes are generally ignored by PayPal resolutions.
    2) Sending money as a gift WILL NOT prevent a charge back.
    3) There is no 'risk free' way to trade with Money services.

    Most transactions will go just fine, but it is always a good thing to be aware of the risks associated.
  4. Symmetrical

    Symmetrical New User

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    1st: Is this still possible? (cancel banktransaction)
    Like what CanadianInvasion said..
    You have to make the seller send the money with that note "I am buying a virtual item and will not dispute" and also make the buyer send the money as Family and Friends
    This would prevent the chargeback
    another way is to use 2 paypals
    Lets the buyer send the money to your "dummy" paypal then send the money from the "dummy" paypal to your original paypal
    This will then only affect the "dummy" paypal and you won't have any loss
    2nd: The only way to get the money back is go to judge?
    Probably

    2,5: Is there even a way to completely hide the own identety (here Mr. Y even though he can transfer money via paypal?)
    Yes
  5. Eoj Nawoh

    Eoj Nawoh Retired Staff Partner Community

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    Firstly, putting that note does NOT protect against chargebacks. PayPal does not have protection for virtual goods at this time. The second way you suggest is against PayPal's terms of service and can lead to legal issues.
    Symmetrical likes this.
  6. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    1. Any TEXT in the paypal transaction is seen by paypal as a "Personal note" TO the receiver of the money. It's intended for notes relevant to the payment like "thnx for lending me the money at the dinner last night" etc. The content has NO effect whatsoever on the rules of Paypal itself.

    2. No, that doesn't protect, for the dummy account will be charge backed, and the money that was forwarded will be charge backed as well if not enough funds or if the transactions are related.

    3. Paypal ONLY support payments for physical goods (there is a fee on that) that are send via post and "gifts" (no fee). Charge backs happen on various reasons:
    - payment on physical goods: no tracking of the posted package = chargeback
    - gift: claim of not doing it yourself.

    Virtual items are SPECIFICALLY excluded in support on paypal.
    Mattie! and Eoj Nawoh like this.
  7. Symmetrical

    Symmetrical New User

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    I was just trying to help .. :(
    I didn't realized my "second way" was against Paypal's terms ..
    Sorry about that then :oops:
  8. Eoj Nawoh

    Eoj Nawoh Retired Staff Partner Community

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    It's fine, it is just important for us to make sure people are aware of important trading and PayPal related policies.
  9. NinjaNick

    NinjaNick New User

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    On the talk about Virtual Trading for Real World Money, anyone know if Google Wallet has a charge-back feature? I heard it's a better way of selling items now. And marketplace.tf is also using that Payment system now.
  10. Penguin The Fluffy

    Penguin The Fluffy Articus Birdicus Defenderus Retired Staff

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    It is not more secure from chargebacks than Paypal. It is in a sense the same process at which Paypal chargebacks happen. The buyer contacts the credit card company/bank and files a dispute. The dispute is then sent to Google. Google then contacts the person being charged back with specific requirements and information. Google then investigates the issue and contacts the credit card company/bank and lets them know their findings. If the overall ruling is in favor of the buyer then you are debited for the amount.

    In normal circumstances Google would bite the bullet for you and not have you debited as it would be protected by the payment guarantee policy. However that policy does not cover intangible goods or services (This means all items traded from tf2 using this method).

    In summary the only difference between Paypal and Google wallet is that the funds are not automatically debited from your your account, resulting in negative balances. Due to the fact that the Google process of handling chargebacks can take a couple of days to a couple of months to process depending on the complexity of the claim.

    For more information on Google's charge back policy refer here: https://support.google.com/checkout/sell/answer/134372?hl=en

    For more information on Google's payment guarantee policy refer here: https://support.google.com/checkout/sell/answer/42863?hl=en
    SilentReaper(SR) likes this.
  11. Blue Screen of Death

    Blue Screen of Death New User

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    Penguin said it all. If you were having problems with PayPal then I don't think it would be any different with Google Wallet.

    On a side note, Google Checkout is being replaced by Google Wallet for digital goods, but the service's policies remain pretty much the same:

    Chargeback resolution policy: https://support.google.com/payments/answer/1385356

    The chargeback process: https://support.google.com/payments/answer/1388053?hl=en&topic=1385345

    Fraud protection overview: https://support.google.com/payments/answer/1385360?hl=en&topic=1356978