1. There is no such thing as a "pending" ban or Steam admin. Anyone threatening your account is a scammer trying to scare you. Read more.

"Investigative" Policy ?

Discussion in 'SteamRep General Discussion' started by Nerevar, Sep 18, 2017.

  1. Nerevar

    Nerevar New User

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    The name sounds fancy, almost as if you even did some investigative work (lol) but first things first. Everyone that ever scammed me had a clean SteamRep, most of them still have, and as I learned later some of them have scammed people months before they scammed me. That itself speaks for something. But back to the point. Most importantly, why is it not possible to see a full report history on someones SteamRep profile ? It does them no harm if the reports were clearly faked and a user can know to be cautious around someone and at least not go first even from an incomplete report. You are basically helping scammers in the way of giving them the "bro you can trust me I have clean SteamRep I no scam" line and a No Special Reputation instead of marking them as more potentially shady than others.
    Secondly, my concrete point of Steam code scam reporting a.k.a. "these types of scams are impossible to verify as legitimate to begin with or what account the code is redeemed on. Before we only accepted if a user had solid proof, now we are rejecting all such reports. You can also report the user to Valve ". This is like saying "it is impossible to verify a rape was really involuntary so even if you have a solid proof your report will be rejected". And no Valve does not handle it (maybe when you get an army of people to spam reports on account page never tried it) or actually gaf. Last time I had a chat about it with Steam support they politely sent me to gtfo with "Due to the wide variety of retailers and distributers that users can purchase codes from it would be difficult to fully pursure this type of reporting and enforce it in a way that is fair and accurate. " and "We’re sorry to hear that you weren’t able to redeem your Steam Wallet Code. Unfortunately, Steam Support cannot assist with Steam Wallet Codes that have been lost or stolen. Valve's Privacy Policy prevents us from releasing any account information except to comply with court orders or laws that require us to disclose such information." I can give a screenshot if you want to, but basically, they only give a damn about the Big code leaks which get sold on G2A etc. (in which case they are, surprisingly, not concerned with privacy and deleting codes from people who paid for them *mostly* in the good will that they legit but this thread´s bout something else) and hurt companies not about some lowly customer´s stolen / scammed / otherwise lost codes.
    Basically speaking, if I get scammed on a code by some random dude from across the world and if I want to prevent the person from scamming other people in the forseeable future I am supposed to report it to who ? The Interpol ? Srsly ?
  2. Sniper Pro

    Sniper Pro FirePowered Head Admin Partner Community

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    If you had actually read the Investigative Policy, or the FAQ page, you would see that nowhere does it say "No special reputation" means "trustworthy." In fact the FAQ specifically points out that
    Furthermore, SteamRep does allow you to check any reports filed against or by a user by clicking the "Search SteamRep Forum" button on their profile. This allows you to check any reports against them for yourself and make a judgement of their reputation even though they may not have any Caution or Banned tags. For obvious reasons, simply having a report filed against you doesn't mean you're not trustworthy. Likewise, not having any reports filed against you doesn't mean you're trustworthy. Doing further research is often necessary and SteamRep isn't meant to be a "one stop shop" for reputation. The purpose is to educate users and flag users who are confirmed to pose a risk to the community.

    As you state, game code scams are impossible to verify as legitimate, so SteamRep chooses not to mark for these types of offenses to avoid marking innocent users. I doubt you would be very happy if someone reported you for a game code scam and you were marked without any verifiable proof. Complaining to SteamRep that Valve doesn't have sufficient measures in place to prevent these scams is pointless, because SteamRep is not affiliated with Valve in any way. Also, comparing a game code scam to being raped is a bit ridiculous, but that's neither here nor there.
    Edward., Roudydogg1, Lava and 3 others like this.
  3. Nerevar

    Nerevar New User

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    1.
    Because guess what, most scammers have tons of rep, more than normal users and a lot of it fake and gues what the policy says at 4. "SteamRep does not maintain reputation threads and does not see profile rep as legitimate. Please report to the community where the fakerep is posted - if posted on steam groups, you can report the posting to the group responsible or report the group to Valve directly." A.k.a. fake rep is not a reportable offense, because everyone who spends their time getting fake rep does it becaue they are good people and never want to scam anyone, right :)
    2. "Complaining to SteamRep that Valve doesn't have sufficient measures in place to prevent these scams is pointless, because SteamRep is not affiliated with Valve in any way. " - It is very much relevantly on point when SteamRep is all like "We dont gaf, contact Valve" :)
    3." Also, comparing a game code scam to being raped is a bit ridiculous, but that's neither here nor there." - I am not comparing the nature of the crime, but the fact it is "impossible to verify for 100%" unless you have the whole thing recorded or a confession etc.
    4. Shill moar pls dis fun
  4. Lava

    Lava Public Relations SteamRep Admin

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    1. We have guidelines on how to identify if a profile looks legitimate. If you're choosing to trust +rep comments in some random unmoderated Steam group, or the "no special reputation" status as a sign that you should go first, then that's on you. The documentation was there, and you chose to ignore it.
    2. As a 3rd-party volunteer-run organization, there is only so much we can do, and ultimately some level of responsibility for scams rests on Valve for design and enforcement, some on you for not trusting strangers on the internet from throwaway accounts. The goal of our database has never been to punish anyone, just to serve as an early warning sign someone who might otherwise appear legit has a history of scamming. If you want retribution, either Steam Support or your local law enforcement agency would be better suited for that. As we cannot advise you on legal/criminal matters, we direct you to Valve. If Valve does not provide the closure you seek, that's beyond our control. Do you have a better suggestion?
    3. Comparing your rejected scam report(s) to rape undermines the real trauma that rape real victims experience, and serves no purpose other than to invoke emotion that might not otherwise be as profound. There's no reason to compare with rape other than to get people upset and impair their judgement, but since you still insist there's nothing wrong with that kind of hyperbole, I'd like to point out there are certain types of forensic criminal investigation practices with that type of crime which, quite simply, cannot work in CD code scamming. You're comparing apples to oranges here. I realize it's a hard concept to grasp when you're seeing red, but we don't act on impulse or emotion here, only evidence. Out of respect for sexual assault victims, I will not discuss the topic of rape any further, and I suggest you drop it as well. If you continue using this kind of distasteful hyperbole, then I will lock the thread.

      With code scamming, there are multiple issues of plausible deniability - for example, if you (the victim) claim the code you received doesn't work, but the scammer claims you (or your friend/alt) activated it from a different account, and the chat log shows a code which is now "already used", how can we possibly prove who is telling the truth? How can we prove you didn't type in the code from a different computer once received? It's just your word against the accused. By design, there's no way for us to determine when or by whom the code was activated, and that doesn't even account for chargeback scams. That's Valve's design decision, not ours, and we can only work with what we have. If we can't prove your scamming accusations, to the point where we can fairly uphold the tag in an appeal, then we're not going to accept the report. This doesn't mean we endorse or condone CD code scamming - quite the contrary - but that we cannot properly investigate it, which is part of why we recommend you don't do it.
    4. I didn't reply to your first post because it was such an incoherent mess, and I couldn't even tell what points you were trying to make. If you have specific points, criticisms, or suggestions you want to make about how we investigate scams, then let's hear them, but it seems to me like you're having a hard time getting your point across, and just messing with people's emotions to try and get preferential treatment.
    Nebras, schmed, Enstage and 2 others like this.
  5. Z o o f i e

    Z o o f i e New User

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    When you engage in Game Code buying from a unauthorized retailer you have basically given up your rights to support. No organization will help you in this case as nothing can be proved. It's your word against theirs and nothing more. Also, about your rape comment.. Rape is verifiable, through analysis of semen and other means. You are not correct in your comparison.
  6. Nerevar

    Nerevar New User

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    To the mod - I *love* it when people try to find reasons why not do something and why something is impossible etc. not what I would expect from volunteers. Look, innocent people get jailed from time to time yet we do not cancel crime types or law because it happens. When someone writes me "I got the code bro" and has the redeemed item on his profile and blocks me after that withouth paying and I got the whole thing on cam as well as the code unscratching then he *probably* got it. I dare you tell me which kind of proof my latest report lacked (except for being about stuff you don´t like to deal with ofc). And yep 12yo kids can get some heavy trauma when their stuff gets scammed. Actually even adults can get it like this guy from my country burned himself alive for losing money in a bank fraud http://www.topky.sk/cl/10/137433/Milos---33---Muz--ktoremu-Fruni-vykopal-hrob (sry for the absolutely off-topic non-english link but chrome can fix that for ya).

    - Noone gets my analogy, I mean the involuntarily aspect is just your word against theirs as well 90% of the cases that is why the victims report rate is very bad as well yet it is still a crime and people get jailed because of it. I know, I studied criminal law for some time before I decided I want IT because it pays better.

    My point is, every kind of fradulent behaviour even in an obvious preparation state should be reportable on a site run by "Online Fraud Prevention Foundation" unless you feel the need to call it "Online False Accusation Prevention Foundation". Steam code scams are no less bad than item scams. I am not saying you need to mark everyone doing the already mentioned fake reps etc. by the red scammer tag, maybe get a few more colored tags for other kinds of suspicious behaviour (like impersonating / amassing fake reps through discussion / etc. but not yet verified to be scamming). And my writing may be offensive for someone because I use to troll a lot and old habits die hard but idc.
  7. Z o o f i e

    Z o o f i e New User

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    You should pick a better analogy then. Steam Codes are technically not supposed to be resold.
  8. Nerevar

    Nerevar New User

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    Most stuff I sell isn´t supposed to be resold, but how am I supposed to make major trips cheaper other than reselling extra pins :D
    A simpler analogy is that your 100 bucks bill gets stolen and the person who stole it can claim it to be their 100 bucks bill or a debt / payment you gave them for something, it is your word against theirs unless you got evidence. With will, coffee and evidence everything can be proved. If something is impossible to prove withouth proper solid evidence it should not warrant decriminalization.
  9. Z o o f i e

    Z o o f i e New User

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    Not provable, sorry. You have no clue how things work. I will be ignoring further replies.
  10. Nerevar

    Nerevar New User

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    Wow, you just utterly crushed my argument with that response and I need to reevaluate my whole life´s meaning right now.
  11. a Gentleman

    a Gentleman SteamRep Moderator Partner Community Donator - Tier V

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    Hi @Nerevar ,

    I help mod /r/Pins4Skins and maintain the middleman list there. Any trade where the exchange of a redeemable code is involved generally precludes any possible action from SteamRep if some sort of dishonesty is involved. This is because of two major reasons:

    1. While SteamRep marks a lot of scammers, it also tries very hard to make sure that the users that are marked are truly guilty of scamming. The standard of evidence we require for a report to be accepted cannot be compromised. With anything involving a code or a pin, it is nigh on impossible to prove the legitimacy of a once-valid-already-redeemed code.
    2. Because of the many unknowable factors involved in trading items or cash for codes, SteamRep policy is generally to not investigate this. There may be some SteamRep Partner Communities that do investigate this. For example, I used to help out at Lethal Zone (now defunct), where accused users can be marked for code scams.

    In a situation where you are scammed during a code trade involving CSGO Pins, I'd recommend reporting the incident to modmail over at /r/Pins4Skins with whatever evidence you are able to collect. We try to keep a pretty extensive and informative blacklist of pin scammers on the subreddit.

    Please understand that the issue of code scamming is a point of discussion that comes up often in SteamRep and other circles. Each community has their own way of dealing with the issue. As someone who has spent... too many hours trying to figure out a foolproof way to safely middleman CSGO Pin Codes for the /r/Pins4Skins middlemen, I believe I have enough experience to say that codes are generally a very risky thing to trade, especially if the code seller goes first. I'd recommend finding one of the middlemen from that subreddit and doing a trade through them. Here are the rules and protocols for /r/Pins4Skins MMs I wrote a while back. Hope reading this helps you understand how hard it is to properly moderate code scam reports...

    tl;dr SR has a policy of not reviewing code scams. Take your reports to a partner community or the pin subreddit. Be careful going first in these trades, always.
    Roudydogg1 likes this.