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Just want to clear a few things up about sharking

Discussion in 'Discussion Archive' started by Robeomega, Mar 9, 2013.

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  1. Robeomega

    Robeomega New User

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    Ok I feel this has been a term which has been very loosely used for a while I just want to clear something up about it

    What it is
    • Saying that the item is worthless when it isn't or lying about the price saying yeah this ear bud its only worth this key
    Example: Hey do you have earbuds
    Person 2: Yeah
    Person 1: Ill give you a weapon for it
    Person 2: im not sure is it that much?
    Person 1: Yeah it isnt worth much
    Person 2: Ok
    They trade
    What it ISN'T
    • Both people are happy with the trade say you are buying a hat with several weapons both people are happy with what the trade is and the person with the weapons said I want your hat what do you want for it and they said ok I want some pyro weapons or something like that
    Now please note a lot of people call this sharking but until you realize that the person with the hat wanted this price
    Example:
    Person 1: Hey I see you have a hat?
    Person 2: Hey how much you buying for?
    Person 1: Offer
    Person 2: erm I like heavy 3 heavy weps?
    Person 1: ok
    Now my hands/fingers can rest from typing
  2. TradingCo

    TradingCo New User

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    For example 1: Why would the person then trade the item after being told he is being ripped off?
  3. Robeomega

    Robeomega New User

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    What do you mean by that?
    Person 2: im not sure is it that much?
    Person 1: Yeah it isn't worth much
    The sharker in this example is taking down the suspicions of player 2 by saying oh that ear buds its not worth much trade me

    Sorry if these examples are slightly wrong but I just made them up on the fly
  4. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    I feel you could have used the search feature, and found the many extant examples with clear and well considered definitions (such as one by Helen) rather than posting redundant and simplistic opinion (which incidentally clear nothing up).
  5. Mattie!

    Mattie! SteamRep Admin

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    The gray areas around sharking is exactly why SteamRep doesn't get involved in those cases.

    Your examples, in my opinion, are both sharking. Taking advantage of a newbie's lack of knowledge about value of their possessions is not a way to build a reputation for yourself as an honest and reputable trader. Lying about the value is much worse, but seeking out people who don't know anything about value and making massive profit off of them-- that's sharking.
  6. Penitent Exile

    Penitent Exile New User

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    I agree. This is both sharking. However happy newbie is after trade - it doesn't mean he wasn't ripped off. Even if he doesn't care about earbuds - giving him 1% of their cost is sharking, because we call people sharks not based on "happy" criteria, but on the "price" criteria. Shark lies to a person, who doesn't know real price of the item, convinces him to trade, then makes huge profit, based on a DECEPTION.
    VenGanZa likes this.
  7. Dronefly

    Dronefly Caution on SteamRep

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    I would use examples more like this:

    SHARKING EXAMPLE:

    Person 1: Hi, I want to buy your apple misc wearable. I think its called Earbuds.
    Person 2: Oh yeah, I have those. What you think they are worth? My friend gave me the item for my birthday but I never wear them on any of the classes I play
    Person 1: What class do you play?
    Person 2: I play Soldier but I don't like them because you can hardly notice the
    Person 1: I will give you a this <shows him a team captain>. It works on BOTH soldier and a few other classes
    Person 2: Cool. Is that a fair trade? Like I said, I don't know what it's worth
    Person 1: I would imagine it is. I give you a wearable item for your wearable item. Let's trade? <initiates trade>
    Person 2: I guess
    Person 1: Accept please. I am in a bit of a hurry and am about to start my match with my clan mates. If you make it quick I will throw in this strange rocket launcher as well since I don't play soldier much.
    TRADE CONCLUDES WITH BOTH FEELING HAPPY.

    A FEW sharking violations happened here:
    #1 - Person 1 KNOWNINGLY used person 2's lack of pricing to falsly make person 2 believe they got a fair trade by using illogical reasoning to convince person 2 that the trade is fair
    #2 - By pressuring person 2 with a time constraint he forced person 2 to make a quick conclusion based on false logic to feel like he is getting a fair trade and possibly getting a better deal due to the "usability" of the hat on multiple classes.
    #3 - Person 1 threw in an "extra" item to earn false trust in person #1s logic

    As you can see both people went away happy yet a clear case of sharking occured.

    NON-SHARKING EXAMPLE:

    Person 1 is playing or trading on random server.
    In trade chat person 2 posts: "Selling smoking outdoorsman 2 ref"
    Person 1 is first to trade this person, puts in 2 ref and waits.
    Person 2 adds smoking outdoorsman into trade and hits ready
    Person 1 hits ready and both accept.
    Person 2 leaves server.

    No words are exchanged and no report is filed.

    Although many would consider this a shady trade there is STILL no sharking involved in this trade. Person 1 took NO action to try and alter or dictate what price they will pay for the unusual hat. Person 2 simply trades and leaves.

    What can be considered shady here is:
    A - someone is dumping hijacked items (this can be a case of a friend hijacking another and unloading stuff for free just because they fought)
    B - someone decided to become santa clause and give away gifts because they got knocked on the head by a lump of coal from scrooge.

    Either way its shady but well within trade regulations and nothing can be done to stop the trade, reverse it or get tagged for it.

    Mind you, if you are person 1 and you find out that person 2 was tagged as a scammer and traded anyways then you CAN get a trading with scammer tag but it would have to be proven (without a reasonable doubt) that you were aware of the tag BEFORE trading the person.

    I can't see any cleaner case then the one above off the top of my head but I think this more or less defines SHARK vs NON-SHARK.

    BTW - Scenario #2 happened to me during my early trading days, so I used that as the example.
    SIDE NOTE TO ABOVE: I was so thrilled I got the luck of getting the deal that I gave away about 10 keys worth of items to everyone else on the server during that time because I had to share my good fortune with all the rest that didn't get the trade fast enough. I ended up selling it for 3 buds.
  8. samhudson333

    samhudson333 New User

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    I'd still say your non-sharking example is sharking. The buyer is taking advantage of the seller's lack of knowledge, for his own personal gain.
  9. Dronefly

    Dronefly Caution on SteamRep

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    are you referring to my example or OP? you didnt quote who you talking about.
  10. samhudson333

    samhudson333 New User

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    Yours. I didn't want to quote the giant block of text again. Obviously, people's opinions on what sharking is and isn't varies. I believe all of your examples are sharking.
  11. Dronefly

    Dronefly Caution on SteamRep

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    I guess this is where we have difference of opinion. I did not find the user nor did I speak price with him in any way. he posted the offer himself, i added to accept and he left server as fast as he came in. who am i to argue what he wants for his item. in a situation such as this it is up to the seller to figure out pricing before setting a price. I agree i would be a shark if he asked me to offer due to lack of knowledge but he clearly set his price before logging into the server and he clearly was happy with the trade.. so I have to disagree. Although it wasn't a fair trade whatsoever, it was not sharking. They question here is what sharking is. Sharking has to have an intent by the "sharker" to WANT to falsify information or mislead someone into believing they are getting a fair deal.

    Was it a fair deal = NOT AT ALL
    Was it sharking = NOT AT ALL

    I am only using this example because this kind of scenario should not be filed as sharking on the communities that support sharking. I did not take ANY action to shark anyone and therefore would not be considered a sharker. Rather a lucky SOB.
  12. Chaos

    Chaos Retired Staff

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    It's your responsibility to let the seller know what his item is worth before you bid on it. So unless you tell him his item is worth the actual amount, you're sharking. In some parts of the world, it's an arrestable offence to hide that information if you're aware of it.

    Tbh, I hate that traders randomly add new players with high value items to hassle them about a trade. I've had many arguements about it with many high profile traders. It's rude and puts the guy in a corner. I know because some of my friends were targeted multiple times, and they've never traded. They told me how they felt about it and I told them to tell them to f✿✿✿ off they're feeling annoyed or harassed. You'd be surprised what can make someone feel uneasy. If an item isn't listed for sale, then leave it alone.

    I wish we could handle shark reports but its impossible form sr to gather the correct evidence to do it. My mind can't be changed on any of this. Of course it's just my opinion, but I wish more people felt this way.
    Melkor likes this.
  13. Dronefly

    Dronefly Caution on SteamRep

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    i totally agree with you chaos. But let's cover this in the way that it happened. I did not add a new player and seek his attention in the hopes I can get an item from him for his lack of understanding. He came into the trade server I was on and posted to ALL in the chat requesting a set price for his item without anyone guiding him or coercing him to do so. How am I to be labeled a shark in this scenario. If I am I will be sure to handle this scenario different in the future but ultimately if the owner of the item volunteers the item without any prior coercing (I didnt offer the price, I just complied to his requested offer) how is it not just a lucky deal? I understand some righteous people insist on trying to educate the person of the price and I would say if the price was in question I would honestly tell them the value, but if the seller chooses to give it away at that price just randomly how am I in risk of being titled a shark? You lost me here mate.
  14. Chaos

    Chaos Retired Staff

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    I was just talking in general about the adding of random people. My gripe with that is that it's rude, not sharking until a trade is discussed. It's not the same thing but it's an issue caused by trading.

    I stand by my opinion. If you didn't tell him the value of his item, and let him rely on a misleading value, it's sharking. You must make sure the other party is aware of the items value, before you agree to a deal.

    Again, it's just my opinion and should be taken as that.
  15. Dronefly

    Dronefly Caution on SteamRep

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    I accept that we are talking about opinions here but what I am trying to bring up which I mentioned earlier in my conversation is if this is a sharking taggable offesnse. Should it be. The problem I am trying to present (was it a fair deal = NOT AT ALL) is that if it is suitable of a sharking tag or not. May not be a "morally" perfect world but does it warrant a shark tag on communities that tag for sharking?

    I think that sharking should only be tagged if it is "sought" out via coerced manipulations
  16. Chaos

    Chaos Retired Staff

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    It's still sharking. You knew full well that the item is worth more. It's not as mean to the other party as the manipulations that happen, but it's the same ends without the important part of the means. Making sure the other party is informed is the important part for me. If you neglect that, you're a shark.
  17. Taylor~

    Taylor~ New User

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    If sharking is getting a good deal out of other peoples ignorance then you can ban pretty much any outpost buying trade for sharking. With trades like buying Salvaged 50 for 2 keys etc
  18. Dronefly

    Dronefly Caution on SteamRep

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    also you should ban every single person on dispenser.tf (Automated trading) that bough craft hats for a scrap because the owners put them up for such. sorry chaos but i just cant agree with you on it. the question here is what qualifies a person to be a shark (which we seem to see come up again and again over the past couple years) and I still have to disagree with you on what is a shark. Based on my example and taylor's example above. Heck I must be a HUGE shark for buying people's backpacks for 70% of their value and reselling everything for full value.
  19. Chaos

    Chaos Retired Staff

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    You don't have to agree with me, it's not up to me. I'm not an admin at any of the communities that ban for sharking.

    it's not about getting a good deal, it's about both parties knowing it's a one sided deal. Omission is the same as lying in my book. If lowball, I let the other party know it's a lowball. At the same time, I sell items cheap a lot, because I get good deals elsewhere.
  20. gukingofheart

    gukingofheart New User

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    Both examples you gave is sharking, let me adjust your examples...

    Example: Hey do you have earbuds
    Person 2: Yeah
    Person 1: Ill give you a weapon for it
    Person 2: im not sure is it that much?
    Person 1: Your earbuds are worth 27 keys, and I would need to offer 1944 weapons for an even trade
    Person 2: Ok..I don't really care anyways..trade me

    ^Example of major stupidity!

    Person 1: Hey I see you have a hat?
    Person 2: Hey how much you buying for?
    Person 1: Offer
    Person 2: erm I like heavy 3 heavy weps? Your hat is worth way more.
    Person 1: Ok..I don't really care anyways..trade me

    ^Example of stupity
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