1. There is no such thing as a "pending" ban or Steam admin. Anyone threatening your account is a scammer trying to scare you. Read more.

Sharking Tag?

Discussion in 'Discussion Archive' started by JJJJ, Apr 7, 2012.

  1. Dr. McKay

    Dr. McKay FirePowered Owner Partner Community

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    If SteamRep refuses to handle this, it's time we got an alternative.

    Actually, humor me for a few moments. Why doesn't SteamRep mark for sharking?
  2. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    We don't handle Sharking for there are no real measurements on sharking.

    Say a bill's is "worth" 15 keys, one is offering 14, is that sharking? and what if he offered 8? or 7? 6? 5? 4? etc. the disparity in worth is "meme" induced. A Bill's hat is worth that much because so many people THINK its worth that much. We aren't the price police far from it. Also, the noob traders they target are not checking SR, for they don't know the trading world well.

    Also, consider the "provability" of the sharking. Most times its noobs getting sharked, no chat logs, no screenshots, only a "story" and maybe a item trade history screenie of their steam trading. There is no way to evaluate if the portrayed "victim" is not just having "Buyers remorse" as Valve calls it. And what if the "Shark" then says: "hey, he agreed to this as a friends favor" or some simular blah.

    As such, the definition I handled on a Scammer tag:
    A trade agreement NOT met by a party.

    If I agree to trade a White Bills for a v.v. merry, thats a trade agreement. I may CANCEL the trade, for doubt may always be there, but IF I trade, it must be a white bills. Not a green one, not a 216 one, etc. After I reject the trade agreement, I can always renegotiate to a new one. But that trade agreement is key for our stance on a scammer tag. yes we do some tagging around for other issues as well, fake rep, fake MM etc, but those are aimed as well to not keeping a trade agreement by their offenders.
    Dave the Manly and Dronefly like this.
  3. That Prophet Guy

    That Prophet Guy New User

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    There should be tags for a number of offences on here, rather than just scamming, to be honest
  4. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    like what? we don't process for anything else for a number of reasons.
  5. Dave the Manly

    Dave the Manly New User

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    Suppose a man finds a crate 40 and offers it in chat, saying he only wants a single refined metal. He figures other crates are usually worth MUCH less, and so that makes this price fair.

    Would you not jump on that deal?
  6. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    I would tell I would give the 1 ref for it, probably drag 2 in, and say its worth way more. Its up to that guy to decide if he wants to know how much more, and if he still continues. I would not have lied, I would have informed the other party by that and would have had a honest trade imo. Is that sharking? No, for as I said, I would have told him its worth more, and then its all up to that party to decide to still continue or not.
    I would also tell 'm how much its worth when asked. That I won't offer that much for it for I don't want it for that price is also my right.

    It would have been sharking if I would have offered him 1 ref for that crate, even if he was offering it for it, without telling him its worth more. Thats my opinion, people set prices on their items how they want. Would I do it vv? nope, as I would set a higher price. But thats also my right.
    Dave the Manly likes this.
  7. Dave the Manly

    Dave the Manly New User

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    The fact that there are no in-game price tags aside from those in the Mann Co store that put most weapons at a fifth the value of a key means that there can be no official price for any item. If a majority values Bill's at 7-8 keys and Jane Doe would only ever pay a ref for one, he's not wrong. That's his price, and if he gets a Bill's hat for that much, no crime is being committed. Personally, I'd never pay over a key for salvaged stranges, because despite their supposed rarity, I don't see how they're any better than any other strange weapon. I've seen people give the new MTP update weapons to scrapbankers, while a majority of offers on Outpost are still at a rec.

    tl;dr : There is no CORRECT price, only an ESTABLISHED price. To stray from that well-met standard shouldn't be a crime, because at the end of the day, an agreement has been made and kept when a shark makes his trades.
  8. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    Hmm, sharking is highly disliked among SR admins and Comm. admins. I agree with you that its not equaling a scammer tag, but that was never the issue. If we would have settled a sharking tag, it would most probably be a "shark" note with a Caution tag, or maybe its own. As discussions didn't finalize on a usable measurement on sharking, there was no point on continuing to discuss the type of tag.

    All this doesn't mean that we may change our views, due changes valve may make or possibilities added to steam trading. It has our attention, and when means arrive, we may step in. Till then, Communities decide upon their own how they want to handle it, as we feel we can't responsibly do it for the community atm.

    So by no means we condone sharking.
  9. Dronefly

    Dronefly Caution on SteamRep

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    I completely agree with you. I do backpack buyouts and since the genine warhead NEVER sells I have after given them to craft hat buyers. I know its worth 2.33-3 ref in the right hands but i treat them as 1-1.33 ref craft hats. just nobody wants them and something worth even 10 buds sitting in my pack and not even getting offers is just worth that. nothing.
    Dave the Manly likes this.
  10. Nøstalgia

    Nøstalgia New User

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    Maybe run an experiment on this? Make up a tag only visible to few members and try handling it like it would be fully implemented to see if it is possible to give clear judgements or not. If it's not possible to appeal judgements than just delete it, otherwise bring it to the open. Measurements mostly clarify after some time dealing without any measurements, therefore a testing period would be great.
  11. HelenAngel

    HelenAngel Retired Staff

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    As numerous people have already stated throughout this thread, just because SteamRep does not mark for sharking DOES NOT mean that we in ANY way, shape, form, etc. condone it. We also do not mark people for animal cruelty, racism, bullying, or sexual harassment but I assure you that there is not a single SteamRep admin who believes ANY of those things are okay in any way, shape, form, or fashion. We are limited in our scope because we are a volunteer, non-profit organization. As the head scam reports admin, I can tell you (as can anyone who has me on their friends list) that doing scam reports takes up 8 or more hours a day. We HAVE to delegate some reports to our sister communities.

    Speaking of sister communities, I am also an AF2 admin. AF2 DOES handle sharking reports. When we have a shark report come in, we contact our admin friends at other communities and those people get BANNED. So don't EVER think that a shark report falls on deaf ears- if you report it to AF2, UTC, MCT, your request is heard and the shark finds him/herself suddenly banned from the most popular trading sites in the TF2 trading community.

    You can ask anyone- I am personally extremely against sharking and both my husband and I have actively worked to help inform players that their freshly unboxed unusual is worth more than a handful of weapons or a copy of a $20 Steam game. I absolutely despise sharks, I have had several people try to shark me, and I have had dear friends who were badly sharked. :( So please don't EVER think for one moment that we condone this type of behavior. :(
  12. Nøstalgia

    Nøstalgia New User

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    But aren't shark tags actually a bit of useless? I mean, who needs SteamRep? Mostly advanced experienced users who are willing to trade, sometimes for real world money; and who need all kind of information about people they do business with. These users won't get shared themselves because they are experienced enough. New players however have perhaps never heard of SteamRep, so they won't be able to look up a shark here anyway.
    Dave the Manly likes this.
  13. Eoj Nawoh

    Eoj Nawoh Retired Staff Partner Community

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    True but, for those who administrate and operate servers, if we ban (or if hypothetically, SR marked sharks) then those players can't get on to our servers and by doing this, we protect those more inexperienced players.

    SR may not be the first thing that comes to mine when a new player, who unboxed an unusual, gets an offer on it. But, when it comes to administrators, communities and servers, if we can protect our players and the community, in any way. It's something worth considering. The new players may not know of sharks/scammers, but if we can provide safe communities and safe servers, while educating, we can change that.
  14. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    I agree on the protection parts etc, but we need clear rules to guide on such reports. and thats lacking for it leaves too much room. I'm still brooding on it, so maybe someday I'll have an egg.
    Nøstalgia likes this.
  15. Eoj Nawoh

    Eoj Nawoh Retired Staff Partner Community

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    Yeah, protecting is a major part. As for guidelines, we're trying to figure out some. For the moment, we're doing a case by case decision.
  16. Evanescence

    Evanescence New User

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    You should focus mostly on true scam.

    The trade market change a lot and the value of items can be mis-evaluated by a lot of person.


    I do agree some are VERY obvious, like a max head worth like a normal hat and such things.

    But if you OFFICIALLY fake sharking report, you will preobably end getting thousand of report of people getting mad and not understanding the difference between sharking and not knowing the true current value of an item.

    You could add a Shark tag for sharker, not officially support the report, not making sub section for, BUT in case you get some report on the side and that are very obvious.
    And a nemo tag as caution tag for sharker.



    If you feel getting more persons to monitor , getting a bigger team, yeah it could be great.
    But if you choose to stay with the same number of admin, NO, you already have enough job.
  17. P | Gavin

    P | Gavin New User

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    I am against the sharking tag. Sharking is not a problem. Sharking is perfectibility okay behavior as far as I'm concerned. Everyone wants to profit from trades . People need to know their stuff or face the consequences. Value is vary variable. My unusual are worth much more to me than what other people tell me its worth. I should be able to accept whatever I want no matter if its high according to other people.
  18. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    well, sharks are up for a unpleasant surprise.... and not by us.
  19. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    Can't see the wood for the trees?

    The problem is SR puts "sharking" into the "too hard basket" and thus does nothing. This has the effect of giving free reign to sharks and makes SR look like a toothless tiger in this respect, if not foolish.

    As I told Helen not long ago, all you need do if change policy to allow yourselves an "opt-in" clause.

    In other words say normally we do not touch sharking (for the myriad of valid reasons why this is a difficult issues), however you state that you will prosecute sharks on a case by case basis should you deem it meet to do so.

    Very simple, and even if SR only touched a few of the serial sharks over time, it would send a clear signal to the community and at the same improve the standing of SR throughout the community.

    I should not need to expound on this, Helen knows my views very well.
  20. AF2 | SPIRIT

    AF2 | SPIRIT New User

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    Sharking is far not as bad as scamming, and therefore you shouldn't get marked for it.
    Especially since there is no such "shark" tag.