1. There is no such thing as a "pending" ban or Steam admin. Anyone threatening your account is a scammer trying to scare you. Read more.

Retracted STEAM-MM.COM

Discussion in 'Archived Applications' started by HideLink〄, May 24, 2013.

  1. HideLink〄

    HideLink〄 New User

    Messages:
    5
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:37758924
    1. Please list the URL/IP of each server in your community that runs the SteamRep plugin and how many days each has been running it.
    https://steam-mm.com (>60 days). Sorry cannot provide IP as it is using CloudFlare frontend to protect ourselves from attacks. We also use SSL encryption for further security,
    2. Have you made any modifications or changes to the SteamRep plugin? If so, please list.
    Spoke to you HelenAngel. Not sure whats this plugin but im using the JSON version of the WebAPI Beta
    3. Please list the URL of your community's Steam group.
    http://steamcommunity.com/groups/steam-mm
    4. Please list the URL of your admins Steam group.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/hidelink and http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197994860055/
    5. Please list ALL admins (not in the above group) and/or moderators of your community below with links to their SteamRep profile (e.g. HelenAngel -http://steamrep.com/profiles/76561197977521239)
    None so far
    6. What are your community's policies on scamming & scamming-related activities?
    Chargebacks=ban. If the seller sells scammed items and we find out we ban.
    7. Why does your community wish to be affiliated with SteamRep?
    We are using SteamRep as one of our main ways to check one's credibility.
    8. Please provide a link to your community's website (if applicable)
    Forums coming soon.
    9. Please provide a link to your community's Sourcebans or ban/report forum.
    Forums coming soon.
    10. Please provide a link to your community's stats page, hlstatsx or GameMe (if applicable).
    I track using internal CloudFlare engine
    11. Please provide additional details about your community such as how it came to be, how long it has been around, the primary goals of it, what it does, etc.
    Primary goal: To automate the middleman service between buyer and seller so that users wont have to wait ages to get a middle man and sometimes middleman can be scammers too. But with automated bots, you cant go wrong :)
    12. Please post your community's desired banner (if not already on SR). Banners should be 225x48. Example:
    http://puu.sh/30a0k.jpg
  2. Sari

    Sari Helpful Member

    Messages:
    2,450
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:1:50710336
    You were supposed to link the group that has your admins/mods, not your admins profile pages.

    Also, one thing that confuses me is that you say your site has had the plug-in for >60 days, yet you say that your site just went into beta today http://steamcommunity.com/groups/steam-mm#announcements/detail/1713897124382897143
  3. TommY

    TommY Retired Staff

    Messages:
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    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:5043065
    I hope you have coded your bots thoroughly and prepared fail-safe measures. There should be absolutely no backdoors or loopholes since MM bot's mistake can be abused for scamming and may result in huge number of victims.
  4. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

    Messages:
    1,663
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:32312479
    Edit: my question is partially addressed above.
  5. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

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    75,522
    SteamRep Admin:
    STEAM_0:1:34690691
    That address may not be correct as you can have an external IP# target the domain vs an internal which in his case he would rather not post so no need to search and destroy.... as for the rest of these posts, really guys? You appear like a bunch of vultures on road kill.... give him some breathing room and at least welcome the guy before you rip his skin off.
  6. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

    Messages:
    75,522
    SteamRep Admin:
    STEAM_0:1:34690691
    not going to sit here and argue with you on it cause I really don't care... but he didn't want to post it so don't post it for him.
  7. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

    Messages:
    1,663
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:32312479
    Or they could just check for themselves: 173.194.72.121 would be a good start :)
  8. Penguin The Fluffy

    Penguin The Fluffy Articus Birdicus Defenderus Retired Staff

    Messages:
    774
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:10455403
    It may just be me. But where have you founded your trust? What would make a person trust your site for middle-manning. I mean to me not anyone can come out of nowhere and start middle-manning other players items.

    I also noticed you mentioned it is free while it is in beta, but made no indication about what pricing will be later. Considering that most communities have middle-manning to be a free service. Why would someone pay for it and what pricing are you looking at? I mean as a MM myself I see no issue with tips, but a fee itself is usually disapproved of as we shouldn't look at profiting off of helping the community. Middle-manning supposed to be a voluntary service not a profiteering service.

    Finally, what measures are you taking to ensure scammer alts are not using your site. To me you can never remove the human element from a MM. No matter how good of a programmer you are there is no way for a bot to look at an account and determine if this account might be a risk or not. Because more often than not when I middleman trades I check the item histories, I check the player's profile for how old it is and the hours they have in the game they are trading for, I check their friends, and I check a great number of other things across multiple other sites that a normal traders just do not have the access to. Which to me circles back to where and what have you done to establish yourself as it is very important for checking your credibility and the credibility for anything you run. If you do happen to have measures in place, what do you have to prevent false positives. As it isn't fair to honest traders to be falsely blocked by an automated MM saying they are not safe if they legitimately are.

    TL;DR

    Bots can not make judgement calls or identify obvious and not so obvious scammer alts and be accurate, thus meaning you need there to be a human presence..
    Regen, Clive, VenGanZa and 1 other person like this.
  9. HideLink〄

    HideLink〄 New User

    Messages:
    5
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:37758924
    Thanks for all the questions guys. I'll try answer as many as I can.
    1) Definitely no loopholes as the process is clear cut
    2) 173.194.72.121 is cloudflares ip and it tends to change. I have added this extra layer of security. Nevertheless should a ddos occur it can be easily resolved by hardware firewalls.
    3)Horsedicks comment "
    That address may not be correct as you can have an external IP# target the domain vs an internal which in his case he would rather not post so no need to search and destroy.... as for the rest of these posts, really guys? You appear like a bunch of vultures on road kill.... give him some breathing room and at least welcome the guy before you rip his skin off"
    Its true and Thanks alot some people are just too mean. Tommy domain ip isnt always the server.ip and it shouldnt be for good server admins.




    4)Penguin....I spoke to you for hours the other day and steam and you have also posted an extensive list of why humans are needed etc. I do not refute that humans are not needed.
    Im planning to focus on dota2 only for now
    The cases you mentioned the other day are of the minority. The rule of majority states that most of these trades wont encounter many problems as the majority of trades occur to gain the items and reps in the first place not for scamming. Scamming is the minority. In which a screening tool should be developed.
    I have many examples to support why humans are needed but why bots are good too. Take for example....we have technology but its never complete without humans monitoring it. This is from sites, machinery etc.
    What bots do to help us.
    Imagine this with more and more dota2 users joining and trading, bots will be an efficient tool for trading.
    Take a medical scenario for example. In fact lets give 2.
    1) A smear vs a colposcopy
    2) A stool sample in high risk groups vs a colonoscopy
    Why use would u wanna waste resources when u can use smears and stool samples first and identify high risk groups to have a colposcopy and colonoscopy. Having everyone do a colposcopy and colonoscopy is simply ineffective and down right dumb in wasting resources.
    If a screening tool can be developed to pick up high risk groups such as those who dont have rep, those who have poor steamrep or previous reports, used a previous fake mm name,unverified paypal accounts among the many others.( I will develop this list and post it when I have the time), We can group them into those eligible for bots and those high risk groups can submit further identification details that show their payment details (both buyer and seller) to be payment verified.
    This approach will be pretty solid in that they have to be verified. Never the less this screening can also wean out those that need human trading
    100% Human trading is pretty dumb as it is a waste of resources when we should use technology to help us while we guide it. Its like driving a car with human element in it. Rather than walking.

    Im sure some of you like the idea, while some of you have doubts while others downright object like Penguin. Nevertheless, Im looking for those who support me. In the real world there will always be those who support you, those who are pessimistic about new ideas and those who downright just dont like your pitch.​

    So, I welcome all sorts of people but I would really like to work with those who support it.​


    If you are talking about trust issues, Im a medical student and I deal with lives of others. Hence i could give you that medical example. I dont mind to even provide my ID to steamrep admins. I didnt create the site to scam or to make tonnes of money(coz i can do that from other sites) I did it coz i love dota(check the hours ive played) and I would like to help the community.


    With that ID, one scam report to the GMC that i directly did a scam will cause me to get kicked out of med school and i can no longer be a doctor in the next year when i graduate. Did u know if i drink n drive, n I get pulled over, I can no longer be a doctor? Yup, im that serious and honest.



    Thanks
    Brian
  10. Penguin The Fluffy

    Penguin The Fluffy Articus Birdicus Defenderus Retired Staff

    Messages:
    774
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:10455403
    You still have not fully addressed the trust issue. Why should any person, group, or community trust you or your site. When you and I spoke in length as you described you admitted that you have little to no experience middlemanning. That your only true middleman experience was for one trade and that "you had done several other smaller MM trades" but you can not produce any rep or evidence of them happening.

    When it comes to middlemanning it is a source of trust, it is acknowledged that that person has proven their trustworthiness.

    Your use of what your career is is not a source of trust or a source of credibility. As scammers come from all walks of life.
    Scooty Puff Jr. likes this.
  11. HideLink〄

    HideLink〄 New User

    Messages:
    5
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:37758924
  12. Penguin The Fluffy

    Penguin The Fluffy Articus Birdicus Defenderus Retired Staff

    Messages:
    774
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:10455403
    Ok I was going to wait to call you out on this but the more I think of this the more I feel the public should know.

    During the conversation that I had with HideLink he stated that he would just "Bring in" an already reputable MM to be a "Co-Owner" that he would share a portion of the donations with. That doing so would be a way to bring good rep to his site. I explained to him that paying someone to rep you isn't legit rep and that it is basiclly paying for a bribe. He kept saying not if he calls them a "co-owner".

    I had let this go as it seemed he was just spouting ideas.... until I was messaged by another MM and had it brought to my attention that HideLink had approached him and said this to him

    I confronted Hidelink about it and he made it out that there was some sort of misunderstanding but did not deny he said that.

    [​IMG]

    It was at this point I stated that he should have never asked a stranger to vouch for him. He then proceeds to say it was another misunderstanding that he misunderstood Helen and even blame her to a point saying that her response was ambiguous.

    [​IMG]

    In summary. I will never trust him as he has now tried to buy rep to make his site seem credible. Every time he is confronted on an issue it just seems to conveniently be another misunderstanding. I can not condone these actions and I am completely disgusted by his behavior as I hope the rest of you are as well.

    Also so that he can not claim foul, here is the last convo I had with him unedited in two parts.
    http://gyazo.com/423435a4e1edc758947b7d92fe8b489e.png
    http://gyazo.com/81402e7189cf108eb6b50e6a9d2d4e99.png


    Edit1: To clarify when it comes to the part about vouching for him. He was adding tagged MMs to ask them to vouch for him, that is why he had added me to begin with and what started the initial conversation between him and I.
  13. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

    Messages:
    1,663
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:32312479
    I had reservations about this since an automated bot cannot make judgement calls about profile details (not without a massive amount of difficult coding), but in light of Penguin's comments I have to say I am very much opposed to this application.
  14. [TF2WH] Bogon

    [TF2WH] Bogon New User

    Messages:
    10
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:63031605
    In light of the conversation Penguin has revealed, it is clear that this can't be trusted and looks like someone trying to elbow their way into a trusted position where it hasn't been earned.
    As someone who leads the largest automated trading platform in the TF2 community, I can assure you that I am well aware of what bots can and cannot do and literally, what you are proposing is impossible without the human element. You're not talking about simply serving as a means of moving normal items between two people; you're proposing a system that would involve trades that require someone to oversee them.
    Middlemanning is about helping two people come to a successful and safe trade, that can't be done without an active human involvement to potentially save someone from a loss and punish the wrongdoer, where your system simple punishes someone after the crime and doesn't help prevent it at all. It's like the police showing up to investigate a murder; it doesn't help the victim at all.
    So to summarize, it's a bad idea from a source that hasn't earned the trust or position in the community to be given the respect that would come from SR affiliation.
  15. Geel9

    Geel9 Scrap.tf co-owner

    Messages:
    37
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:1:18301684

    It's not all that hard to handle the human interaction. Since the system (assumedly) requires both parties to confirm that the money has been sent, it's very easy to add human interaction only when it's required. If somebody says the transaction is not kosher, it can lock the trade and simply alert an admin. This only requires minimal human interaction.

    On the other hand, this person in particular has--as you said--not earned the community's trust. Even if trust were not an issue, security is a difficult topic. Due to the fact that Steam is incredibly finnicky, and both scrap.tf and TF2WH have nowhere near 100% success rates on their trades, it's incredibly likely that it's simply impossible to secure this system. Whether the security is breached due to a hacker's intentional attempts, or simply because the Steam network acts in a way that the bots did not predict, is irrelevant; given that there are (from what I can tell) no prior projects to base the OP's competence on, it'd be foolish to trust that their system is entirely secure.
  16. Scooty Puff Jr.

    Scooty Puff Jr. New User

    Messages:
    366
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:1:34050552
    By human interaction, we mean the ability to check hours, games ect a person has and do a background check on the person to see if they are a marked scammer
    Sari likes this.
  17. Geel9

    Geel9 Scrap.tf co-owner

    Messages:
    37
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:1:18301684
    It's entirely possible to check if they're a scammer; while the other things do require decision making abilities that can't be emulated well by a program, it's not to say that they're absolutely required.
  18. Eoj Nawoh

    Eoj Nawoh Retired Staff Partner Community

    Messages:
    1,445
    SteamRep Admin:
    STEAM_0:0:40091868
    Most would prefer not to allow scammers/hijackers to easily pass their goods on. Including Valve, as we saw with TF2 Warehouse.
  19. [TF2WH] Bogon

    [TF2WH] Bogon New User

    Messages:
    10
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:63031605
    We aren't saying that it can't be done, we are saying it shouldn't be done. A bot can not make decisions based on experience, nor can you program the years of experience that most admins bring to the table. Automation can only do so much, and this idea stretches beyond the realm of what a bot can or should do.
  20. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

    Messages:
    3,437
    MM bots have their limitations as well, with tf2wh, they use a type of stepping system to allow bigger usage of the site over time as a measurement. A experienced admin takes 1 look at a backpack and/or profile and knows what type of trader one is. Unfortunately, the TF2 experience doesn't work on Dota2. Whole different ballgame to understand.

    For a unknown to start such a site/system, is a bit hard to gain momentum, for real life info isn't always true, and online that isn't valued as much. "Hard" earned rep like on SOP or D2T, or other associate comms do come with a lot of time, effort and trading.