1. There is no such thing as a "pending" ban or Steam admin. Anyone threatening your account is a scammer trying to scare you. Read more.

Suggestion: Untrusting Rank(or something similar)

Discussion in 'SteamRep General Discussion' started by gukingofheart, Apr 7, 2015.

  1. gukingofheart

    gukingofheart New User

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    There's certain scammers who will apologize, pay back their victims, and do some nice things.
    However, should they be trusted right away where the mark is completely removed?
    Well, that's up to the SR admins to decide.

    However, for some scammers, they deserve some kind of second chance for trading.
    That's where an "Untrusting Rank(Make it colored red & not yellow)"
    If someone has this type of rank, then paypal trading, raffles, and any other type of 1-way trading should be forbidden.
    Maybe also ban expensive items(You can decide how expensive or no limit).

    The difference between this mark and a scammer mark, would be simple safe trades.
    Outpost & other communities can decide if they want to unban or not.

    The point is, how can a scammer who's really sorry, earn trust again, if he's not allowed to trade?
    I talked with a lot of people who basically want to know if someone was a marked scammer, and wouldn't ever want to see the marked ever removed(I think they're harsh) but they have somewhat of a point, and this could be the next best thing.

    Maybe down the line, Untrusting users can earn their trust back(You can make a harsh guideline).
  2. segel

    segel New User

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    Just wondering about your thread, I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding what you're wanting them to implement, and some of the problems that might occur if these were implemented.

    [1] So just from the bolded parts, you're suggesting to Steamrep that they should have control over untrusted persons inventory, and actually limit them from owning an item over a certain value? What would they do, like sell it on market and buy a few thousand 4 cent skins with their knife... or how would it work?
    Not only should Steamrep ( a third party site) be controlling their inventories and actually monitoring the value of their skins, what happens if the market fluctuates and goes over the limit?

    [2] You say that we should forbid real-money deals, how would Steamrep be able to monitor this, more importantly, what gives Steamrep to decided who deals with who and using what medium?

    [3] Yet again, I'm confused how Steamrep ( a third party site not affiliated with Valve ) would be able to control someones ability to trade.
  3. You Are The One

    You Are The One Appeals SteamRep Admin

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    Who will babysit the users making sure they follow the rules/probation you are suggesting?

    If you honestly think SR has time for babysitting ex-scammers, your nuts.
  4. gukingofheart

    gukingofheart New User

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    No baby sitting is needed.
    If someone reports an "Untrusting" user for a paypal scam, then Steamrep can decide on what to do here.
    I'm not saying to stop them from doing these trades, but if they are, people can report them(even if no scam happens)

    Sort of like being on real life probation...they must follow these guides or risk being tagged again.
    Also, anyone doing a paypal trade with an "Untrusting" person should know better!
  5. You Are The One

    You Are The One Appeals SteamRep Admin

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    And just like "real life" probation, they are probation officers who check on those users. SR currently cant keep up with the current workload, you would be adding thousands upon thousands of hours of manpower.
  6. gukingofheart

    gukingofheart New User

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    Fine, let the users then decide if they want to do paypal, raffles, etc trading with "Untrusting users"
    The point is, users who check SR will know that this user was a marked scammer, and they have the choice if they want to trade with that person or not.
    Now no mannpower is needed.
  7. You Are The One

    You Are The One Appeals SteamRep Admin

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    that's why SR does not allow trading w/scammers
  8. Inu

    Inu TF2Bazaar Owner Retired Staff Partner Community Donator - Tier V

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    If it were for me, scammers who pay back the stolen amount just to get their tag removed would be updated to "I like to pretend I have changed" and have all further appeals declined. Fact is this "project" would require staff to put effort into people that do not deserve any, for their effort was as little as repaying the victim in an attempt to get their reputation cleared, not because they are sorry, for if they had remorse about such actions, they would never have scammed to begin with.

    Even if SR were to pardon them with such a tag and give them a second chance; Which Partner Community in their right mind would let an ex-scammer back on the site? I do not give a damn about how sorry they pretend to be, I have users to protect and need to ensure their safety when trading with individuals on Bazaar.

    This idea is basically a free ticket for scammers to scam again. They will deceive new users into thinking their "new rank" means they have successfully appealed and thus never scammed anyone...until they start again. I could type up an entire essay with issues on this topic but this should do as well:

    1) Scammers do not deserve second chances if they only pay back to clean their rep
    2) They would stay banned from the places that matter anyway
    3) New tags open up place for confusion and new scam techniques
  9. segel

    segel New User

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    [1] As far as I know, Guking is not trying to say that the scammers should just simply be let off the hook for paying the person back, he's not saying that at all. It could be left to the administrators discretion to whether or not to allow the appeal, and let the admin determine whether or not they think the apology is sincere. You're using that as a basis for your argument yet thats simply a straw-man fallacy, since you didn't actually refute his point at all.

    [2] That is just simply an assumption that anyone that scams isn't sorry about their actions. What we see in real life is people after jail become normal and kind people, although some people become repeat offenders, it is unfair to branch the entirety of fraudulent users as fraudulent users for life, and that they can't change.

    [3] Although it is your right (as a site owner) to decide who joins/is allowed back on the site, how are you able to determine whether or not they are sincere in their apology? Someone could be completely sorry and regretful for their mistakes yet you assume that they are simply lying because of their record, which is completely unfair.

    [4] Again, this is under the assumption that the person isn't sincere, and you are automatically assuming that the second they have a clean Steamrep again that they are going to go on a massive scamming spree.

    [5] This was already said previously, but you're assuming that the only reason they are creating a pardon and paying their victim back is because they want to have a clean rep, which again refers to my previous point 4.

    [6] So I'm a little confused on this point, you normally take Steamrep very seriously and ban the people on your site that are banned on here, but when it comes to clearing someones name you refuse to do it because you don't agree with it? That seems like a guilty ideaology where everyone is guilty until they are proven to be innocent, which is honestly questionable since on Steamrep you have to be proven guilty with sufficient evidence before you are banned. Again, this shows that you only really listen and take action on Steamrep bans, but if someone is innocent you don't care.

    [7] Care to elaborate on the new Scam attempts with a caution tag?
  10. Inu

    Inu TF2Bazaar Owner Retired Staff Partner Community Donator - Tier V

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    I think you mistake me for someone who believes in second chances. This is merely my opinion and does not represent anyone or anything, so generally I would not have to explain myself for it. I will however since you raise interesting points that I would like to answer with my views on them.
    I will gladly welcome anyone who has been falsely tagged or gone way beyond the call of duty of their appeal back into the trading community. Whom I will not welcome back are people who clearly try to repay their way out of a tag, no matter if that appeal ends up accepted or not. If someone scammed me and paid me back, I will still tell them to go f*** themselves and stay banned.

    [2] This is more the equivalent of being jailed and trying to pay your way out of it since by the nature of SR, every sentence is permanent. I do not like comparisons such as this one however as SteamRep deals with reputation across a few games and being jailed affects the actual life of a human being. The stakes are not even remotely the same so I believe I deserve the radical opinion to completely forsake everyone who has been proven guilty of scamming unless they show a serious act of remorse(and simply repaying someone will not cut that).

    [3] I personally run on a zero scam policy. If you are a proven scammer and your appeal has been granted because you are "sorry", I still don't care about your so called "innocence". This is a harsh view and many would probably disagree with me but I do not like scammers, sorry or not. Of course there could be exceptions to this "rule", I have not seen one yet.

    [4] Explained above, I do not believe they deserve second chances.

    [5] I generally question the sincerity of people who deceive and steal.

    [6] Once their tag is lifted they are welcome to appeal for a ban on our site. Usually we grant every appeal after a short look at it as I trust SR Staff to make the right decisions. I would never grant the appeal of a scammer who decided to repay his victim after months because he realized trading with a tag is very hard though.

    [7] Most people do not actively check SteamRep and the tags they are familiar with are Trusted, Caution and Banned. Introducing a new tag would put such users at grave danger as the offender may deceive them into thinking the tag means something entirely else than its official meaning. Untrusted is such a vague term. Yes of course, the admin notes should elaborate on any ban but fact is, there are still plenty of people out there that are confused with Caution tags even, let alone a new form of tag. Banned by worked so well and I do not think we need a separate tag or any form of probation method for people who repay their victim. Let's not make the system too complicated just to support extreme edge cases.
  11. You Are The One

    You Are The One Appeals SteamRep Admin

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    1. Not going to comment since you have pending reports against you.
    2. they still have a criminal record regardless of restitution. (banned by tag)
    3/4. When I did appeals where repayment factored in, the part of the appeal as to being sorry or not made up maybe half of my judgement if they were truly remorseful. I judged it based on a number of factors including:
    • Past actions.
    • Repayment and time frame of repayment.
    • Honesty in appeal.
    • How well established the user was in any specific comm.
    • And based on their participation in comms, if they reasonably knew about SR at the time.
    I have dealt with enough users to have a pretty solid idea of tells/cues that indicate one way or another.

    Another point since I'm still replying, could be abused by users going on scamming sprees until they are reported/caught knowing they get a free pass by repaying for the time they got caught. Any previous victims who do not know to report to communities or dont know about SR are f✿✿✿ed over.

    Simply put, Its not worth babysitting users and its not worth making a loophole for scammers to scam upto when they get caught knowing they can repay/say sorry and get off.

    /whatever
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015
  12. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

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    We have discussed in the past "programs" where people would be "babysitted" with a long list of requirements. Upon exploring that, we came to the conclusion that:
    - It takes a lot of time of the admin(s) PER individual in the program.
    - Could not be warranted availability of admins to finish the program.
    - Cannot assume that those individuals have time to participate fully, due school, college, university, work, life, etc.
    - Cannot assume interest or ability in the subject of requirements (one of the things thought of was letting them do a season or 2 of competitive play).
    - The competitive play program would mean they needed a decent computer with a good internet connection
    - Subject of requirement could/would have varying duration, which could be a couple weeks to never get thru to next round, or months if getting far. making it unequal.
    - Varying amount of participation could therefore not be judged upon.
    - The activitiy didn't mean any on the trading side.
    - Overal negative reactions when discussed with various Partner Community Admins.

    So, babysitting any is not going to be an option. The time was better spend handling reports and appeals by admins, and the program could not be made such that actual trust was build.

    More gradations of tags is also not going to make it, for those gradations need to be administered just as much as the existing ones. Any lesser gradation then "BANNED BY XXX" would be a "XXX CAUTION" anyways in my opinion. Keeping it simple and such is also a important point here.
  13. daemon

    daemon Retired Staff

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    nice pic yato