1. There is no such thing as a "pending" ban or Steam admin. Anyone threatening your account is a scammer trying to scare you. Read more.

You will no longer receive your items back if a gift you traded for gets revoked

Discussion in 'SteamRep General Discussion' started by Enstage, May 4, 2016.

  1. Enstage

    Enstage SteamRep Moderator Partner Community Donator - Tier V

    Messages:
    2,901
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:1:52569926
    Just when I thought some of the policies Steam has were bad, this comes up.

    So apparently, if I make a completely legit trade, entirely in the trade window and trade items for a gift; and that gift gets revoked due to whatever reason (it could be someone 6 people up the line has a bad payment method!) then I won't be given the items I traded back. This basically makes trading for gifts completely and 100% more unsafe than before. Gifts are now basically sticks of dynamite that could go off get revoked at any time and theres no way around it.

    Important to note, that nothing has changed in terms of the buyer paying first then the seller literally gifting the game to the buyer. This about trading the gift within the trade window for other items.

    Source: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=5854-QWLN-2621

    (or inside of it apparently credit)
  2. Inu

    Inu TF2Bazaar Owner Retired Staff Partner Community Donator - Tier V

    Messages:
    399
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:1:62120987
    A great way to save on the support costs, simply reduce the ticket volume by gimping players!

    This is worse news than the new DOOM game.
  3. Salmon

    Salmon Caution on SteamRep

    Messages:
    1,937
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:1:21003377
    Wat. This is so dumb. All they had to do was not allow games to be tradeable until there was no chance of them being revoked. That's the whole point of tradeability and why trade locks on items exist.
  4. RuhaI

    RuhaI Partner Community

    Messages:
    42
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:1:60262405
    Gifts are already untradeable for 30 days after purchase
  5. You Are The One

    You Are The One Appeals SteamRep Admin

    Messages:
    10,360
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:1:41038663
    Hate to jump on bandwagons, but beyond stupid.
  6. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

    Messages:
    11,992
    SteamRep Admin:
    STEAM_0:0:89705646
    ... eh? This was already afaik for years. Valve/Steam never supported gifts via trading. Hell, if someone (B) trades a game (from A) and then gifts a game to someone else (C), and they activate it on their account (C), and the original buyer (A) gets revoked, the user who had received the gift (C) can't go to Steam Support, the one trading for it (B) and gifting it to the one activating it (C) is also left in the muck....

    Gifts are useless. Have been for a VERY long time.
  7. Horse

    Horse Administrator SteamRep Admin

    Messages:
    66,996
    SteamRep Admin:
    STEAM_0:1:34690691
    I was looking forward to DOOM :( Don't crush my hopes up to revisit my teen years.
  8. Inu

    Inu TF2Bazaar Owner Retired Staff Partner Community Donator - Tier V

    Messages:
    399
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:1:62120987
    So were we all :(
  9. Edward.

    Edward. SteamRep Admin Donator - Tier V

    Messages:
    1,786
    SteamRep Admin:
    STEAM_0:0:30537130
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:30537130
    Really no point just randomly "Trading/Gifting" untradable Steam gifts with random users, but that doesn't mean you can't find a legitimate seller for the "Gifts" you are looking for. You can find legitimate bulk sellers for "Gifts" on Dispenser, tf2outpost who are selling them for years with no issues and problems. Most of the legitimate "Gift" sellers are trading these gifts for CS:GO / TF2 'Keys' and later on they sell those 'Keys' on the Steam Market to re-buy more Gifts, so basically those gifts are 100% safe and I'm talking this from experience. But yeah I agree there is no point trading for untradable Gifts with random users because they're still a bunch of malicious users who try to scam others with revoking gifts. Additionally I want to add that "Gifts" are not useless like mentioned above, because of Steam Gifts and cheaper regional pricing in some countries users can buy games much cheaper through trading than in some expensive regions like AUS, UK, EU, etc... Not to mention companies like G2A are making millions of dollars of income because 90% of the sellers are selling "Steam Gifts".
    Again, I am talking this from my experience because I'm a wholesale and retail merchant too.
    About the "DOOM" game, well I am not surprised that most of the good old games/franchises are ruined because these companies who develop/publish games are only in for the quick buck, falsely advertising and literally deceiving people to buy their falsely advertised product.
  10. Lava

    Lava Public Relations SteamRep Admin

    Messages:
    5,582
    SteamRep Admin:
    STEAM_0:1:46187366
    I thought this was already known. When Valve pushed out the trade holds, they also said they will not restore items anymore, at all. They always pinned game trading chargebacks on the victim, but a big part of the trade hold change was to completely get rid of duping.

    What I'd like them to do, at minimum, is display a link to the profile used to buy a Steam gift. As it stands, they pretty much maimed the ability for traders to recognize scammed games; you used to never trade for games that were untradeable until a certain date for example, because that meant it was bought with a new account or payment method, but now all games go through that 1 month period. Additionally, common practice from game scammers is to buy the game on a throwaway account they expect to get banned, gift it to their somewhat legit looking main, and then the buyer (often a reseller) has no way to recognize it as a scam. Once charged back, the seller claims plausible deniability, and sometimes unknowingly bought it from a scammer with no warning sign it was carded. If Valve at least added a link to the buyer's profile on the gift, it would give people some way to recognize a game might be carded regardless of who is selling it.
    schmed likes this.
  11. schmed

    schmed Partner Community

    Messages:
    98
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:1:52746850
    Although this is unfortunate for legitimate buyers / sellers that trade Steam gifts, it should close a lesser known loop hole to duplicate items.

    Private Notes, To Avoid Posting a "How to Duplicate Items Guide":

    Hidden Content:
    **Hidden Content: Content of this hidden block can only be seen by members of (usergroups: Administrative, Moderating).**
  12. Lava

    Lava Public Relations SteamRep Admin

    Messages:
    5,582
    SteamRep Admin:
    STEAM_0:1:46187366
    I'm aware of what you described, schmed, and thought it was common knowledge, but the problem comes in with scammers sending carded games to legit looking accounts, trading from there, and leaving it to blow up in someone else's face who had no way to see it was bought from a throwaway account. I still think if Valve insists on taking this hold-victims-responsible approach they should provide victims some means of knowing a game might be carded in the first place.
    schmed likes this.
  13. schmed

    schmed Partner Community

    Messages:
    98
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:1:52746850
    I agree with you, and everyone else on this thread, 100%. Overall, this policy change hurts the community significantly more than it helps, and I dislike the hold-victims-responsible approach that you described too. My comment was merely attempting to point out a positive amid another bad policy change by Steam.

    I am terrified "excited" to see what Steam has in store for the community next to "make Steam great again"™.
  14. Edward.

    Edward. SteamRep Admin Donator - Tier V

    Messages:
    1,786
    SteamRep Admin:
    STEAM_0:0:30537130
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:30537130
    Yes, I agree with Lava too, but this is all up to Steam. It's still better that the newly purchased Gifts are untradable for 30 days than being tradable immediately after the purchase.
  15. Sebastian Nielsen

    Sebastian Nielsen New User

    Messages:
    36
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:5443765
    The same policy also applies if you for example trade a CS:GO Karambit | Case harderned against, lets say a CS:GO Karambit | Fade
    After this, it turns out that the CS:GO Karambit | Fade was bought on the market using Steam Wallet money that was carded from a stolen CC.

    Steam will then attempt to track the Karambit | Case harderned to see if they can recover it.
    Now to the big deal:
    Lets say the fraudster sold the CH on the market, and then used up the money on one-use items, that they spent. Eg, the Case harderned is deemed as "unrecoverable".

    Then you get nothing back aswell. They take back the Karambit | Fade, without "reimbursing" you.


    This is why Steam/Valve is very hard to emphazise that:
    - Not even trading in the trade window is 100% safe. You should ONLY trade inside trade window with TRUSTED indivuals for high-value items.
    - AND trading outside trade window should NEVER be done!

    Thats basically valve's policy on trading. And thats also why they recommend only trading with people that have been in your friendslist for at least 1 year.
  16. Thomas Matthias

    Thomas Matthias Retired Staff

    Messages:
    4,660
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:36213483
    Can you prove that?
  17. Sebastian Nielsen

    Sebastian Nielsen New User

    Messages:
    36
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:5443765
    By the information Valve has given in the threads on Steam Community, they are pretty clear that they will *NEVER* dupe any items since the new trading rules were applied, regardless of the circumstances. If someone trades a fraud item, and the item(s) that were traded for this item cannot be recovered, then the item is lost. The new trading rules also mean Valve will never recover any stolen items that was stolen off a account.

    This is also a positive thing, since this means that Valve will no longer restore items for scammed/hijacked users, all trading is your responsibility, the only thing they do now, is to trade ban/propabe the users that was involved in the scamming, which also means that Valve will no longer attempt to find items that was traded for a specific item in scam/hijack scenarios.

    But when it comes to CC fraud, Valve are pretty strict, and they will remove any item that was gained due to CC fraud. Actually, they are required by the agreements with the card company to do that, else they get their aquirer agreement ended.
    Of course, they will attempt to reimburse you for the items lost, eg attempt to track the items and recover them if they are for example found on the scammer's account, but if they are deemed to be unrecoverable then they just pull the item from your account.
  18. Thomas Matthias

    Thomas Matthias Retired Staff

    Messages:
    4,660
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:36213483
    I asked you to prove the imaginary story you wrote, not to give me your interpretation of Steam Trading Policies.

    Valve policy about trades in which a scam took place is to NOT reverse the trade and NOT restore any items that were lost during the trade in question. This policy is in place for a very, very, very long time. To be honest I do NOT know if it was ever any different. Nothing new.

    They used to restore items that were lost during the time when the account was hijacked. This was a one-time support service. They do NOT do that anymore. I know that.

    I also know they remove items which were acquired by using a stolen credit card. If those items were traded to another account in a one-sided or a completely unfair trade (e.g. 10 carded keys for a worth nothing case), they will most likely get removed.

    The thing is I have never heard a story like yours, I don't know the prices of the knives you mentioned, but I assume they are 1:1 in value or very close to that. I never heard of anyone who would get items acquired in a fair trade (two-sided, 1:1 in value or very close) removed just because the other trade party bought it with a stolen credit card.

    Not to mention, to sum up your story:
    1. Someone (let's call him John) commits a crime by using a stolen credit card in order to buy virtual items. It's not like scamming a virtual hat from a kid which may or may not be taken seriously by authorities in some countries. I believe using a stolen credit card is taken seriously in most of the civilized places.
    2. John trades his fraudulently acquired item for another virtual item.
    3. John sells his new virtual item in the market.
    4. John uses the money he cannot cash-out for one-time-use items e.g. stickers.
    Wow. Perfect crime. /S

    Another thing, it seems you think about virtual items as they would be physical goods. It's not a bottle of orange juice, you can't drink it and the juice is "somehow" gone. Those knives/hats/whatever never existed in the first place, those are pixels etc. Valve does NOT trace virtual items in order to materialize them and bring them to Gabe Newell's table. If they want to do something with carded items, they trace them to remove them.

    Back to your story:
    1. The value of CH is now in those one-time-use items he bought, they can remove them.
    2. If he bought keys and opened cases, they can remove the items he opened.
    3. If it took so long, the items became tradable and he traded them for different items. The value of CH is now in those new items and so on and so on and so on.
    4. If it took so long, the items became tradable and he sold them for real life currency, it means the trade was one-sided, the items will most likely get removed from the new owner's inventory.
    5. If he bought sickers and applied them, they can remove them from weapons or the entire weapons.
    So... Did a story like yours happen to anyone?
    Edward. likes this.
  19. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

    Messages:
    11,992
    SteamRep Admin:
    STEAM_0:0:89705646
    Valve stopped the 1-time restoration on Hijack victims? Source?
  20. Thomas Matthias

    Thomas Matthias Retired Staff

    Messages:
    4,660
    Steam:
    STEAM_0:0:36213483
    Steam Item Restoration Policy - https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=9958-MJDG-3003 :
    Screenshots:
    1.PNG 2.PNG
  21. SilentReaper(SR)

    SilentReaper(SR) Retired Staff

    Messages:
    11,992
    SteamRep Admin:
    STEAM_0:0:89705646
    Not specifically naming hijacking there, but no google results for that specification either.
    Its more saying something that that specific one is linked from this page regarding this, which means they do include hijacking as not a reason to restore.
    https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=2347-QDFN-4366

    Well, at least that ended the huge amount of automated bots that where "automatically" hijacked and asked restoration on.

    Bad tho for those that are still victim to hijacking. As much as Valve is denying it, it does still happen. And a lot of people consider the emails valve throw out for every "act" spam and aren't reading those, which will basically make it unnoticed if a "RAT" is doing trades when there is no Steam Authentication via a mobile device.

    Other thoughts on that:
    - The downfall of Dota2 items due duplicating of all those "unique" items may have had a role in this.
    - The huge swarms of duped earbuds and other expensive items in TF2 may have also had a role in this.
    - Above mentioned duper networks are ended with it.

    I see a future where it will be a REQUIREMENT to have steam authenticator to do any trading... Good luck protecting your phone....