SCAMMER PWNED

As Admin of SOP, I too feel that you were rightfully banned from our site. We hate scammers and want to stop them just as much as any other person. However, we don't support vigilante actions such as that you have taken. You scammed a person today, although that person is a scammer, it doesn't change the fact that you yourself are now a scammer. In the real world, when someone kills someone, you cannot go out and kill that person and expect to not get in trouble for it. You have to let the justice system play out. I know this may sound stupid to you but trust me when I say these rules are much needed guidelines for the community. There are hundreds of scammed victims every month. What if every scammer claims to be scamming for a "friend who was scammed." There would be no way to tie all the lose ends and connect all the pieces to see who was scammed. This can lead to chaos. I applaud you for wanting to do the right thing and helping a fellow out, unfortunately there were other courses you could have taken.

I've discussed this with other admins before, the only conclusion that we've come to is that down the line, it's still scamming.

I feel sorry for your mark, but you really shouldn't have done that.

I think this is a case worth studying, debating - Dronefly v morti (Apr 2012)

The most ideal outcome here would be that morti returned the 2 buds himself to the victim after Dronefly's intervention. I feel that this is a case that would need more input from the jury (the public tf 2 community), whether to brand Dronefly a scammer for life or allow him to appeal for a second chance to come clean.

more of my input,

the term 'scammer' in tf 2 universe needs a proper breakdown of what actions mark a tf 2 person as a 'scammer'. In the majority of scammed cases, it is always,

a) the Perpetrator has intention to commit stealing of 'virtual items' through deception without reasoning
b) the Victim is not aware and will likely be blocked/removed of all communication once the trade is done

I feel that branding Dronefly as a 'scammer' might be too harsh of a term to use, as both a) and b) did not actually happened nor did Dronefly has intention to steal. Another lesser damaging term would have to be used.

Feel free to correct me

There is always a reason, a guilty mind, when conducting a scam. The motivations behind it is what needs to be determined.

I agreed with Mattie's sentiments, Dronefly's heart is in the right place. However, after his wall of text about "beating our system" and showcasing his ability to change his identity and start a new, my empathy with his situation has quickly dissipated. When people boast about their VPN bs and how they can circumvent us, I have absolutely zero respect. Talk to us, don't talk on the offensive, we won't listen.

Note below:

It is explicit and undeniable, you have scammed a scammer. You have purposefully deceived him.
- Where is the line drawn?
- When does scamming become acceptable? It simply doesn't.
- What of the flood gates? You live in your idealistic notion of "robin hood" but you fail to even realise the overarching policy issues. Because you simply don't have to worry about them, you don't look beyond what you think is right or wrong, you limit your actions to the micro level.
- What about the macro level, the greater community? When can we identify when you were scamming for good intentions or bad? And when this ambuigity is created, how can we protect the trading community effectively? We simply can't.

You have overlooked all of these problems because they are bigger than you. You don't look at the detriment to policy pragmatism when going down your road. "A community of people who stand behind the words we breach?" "Long overdue?" The protection and prevention of scammers have always been Steamrep's number one priority. People who believe they are above the community standard and feel that they can engage in detrimental behaviour at the cost of the community (bear in mind the community policy issues) are dangers to our long term effectiveness. If us as admins shared your mentality our system would not be as effective as it is today. It would be mute. One victim who is restored, isn't the community. Two wrongs don't make it right. It is far from right in this case.

Read this again, it is a great break down of the inherent problems in your vigilantism:
http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/76561198035410021-green-is-the-colour-sr-scammer.1553/#post-4919

i just want to leave here that like 2-3 months ago a guy named norris and a steamrep admin contacted me to buy the hat i scammed they offered unbelivable amounts like 200$ paypal for a stupid hearts pot i think they would scam me and run so i didnt gave them the hat i scammed

i mean if even steamrep admins does this ..

Thanks for self-reporting your own scam... And please post PROOF OF THE ADMIN attempting to "scam" you.

Idiot. No proof. Accusing others. And telling us you scammed and seemingly not caring.

i asked him to buy 2,5 buds instead of 150$ he just wanted to trade with paypals.. im not real meow at that time impersonating he was obviously trying to scam me 2,5 buds= 70$ at max

http://i.imgur.com/A6jSQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pmp43.jpg and i expect apology from you idiot

I am simply pointing out the flaws in the system. I am a very honorable person if this whole act hasn't proven it until now. I have acted out of the goodness of my heart and my belief to right a wrong and nothing more. I only point out the fact that when you deal with people who have no morals, it is okay to use their own "medicine" against them to teach them a lesson as long as it is done the proper way. I did not defraud the guy, i refused to deal with him and I acted very calmly and maturely and non-opinionated in the whole matter. The fact that I seized an opportunity to help someone regardless of the consequences is my choice. The fact that I did this without any form of "revenge" also shows that I am not a hasty irrational person. Also, the fact that I gave back the bills to the guy and agreed to honor the trade once the person who branded him a scammer agreed that their matter is resolved and forgave him shows no reason for me to be branded "trading with a scammer". I only did it to teach him a lesson that goodness can prevail and that even when caught as a scammer and "forced" to reconcile the difference (yes, this is how it happens in the real world too. You get "summoned" to court, not asked) in the dispute (because i managed to get a hold of both partied BEFORE i could get a hold of either Delena or Diego, both of which i tried to add and help me mediate the problem at hand), I tried showing him that honorable actions are followed through and I still honorably traded with him.

He even commented after all was said and done to me how honest and nice i am. He did not need to do that. I just took 2 buds off him and gave them back to a person. He even went and apologized AFTER the transaction was finished and he got his money and bills back. He didn't need to do that but he did it because I showed him how better it is to be on the other side of the line he was walking.

Also, if the person who requested the scam report to be filed agreed it was resolved and the scammer admitted he only scammed twice (first time was just getting a really good deal, but it was an agreed upon trade so no scam occurred) then I feel that he had a right, although his name was not yet cleared, to try and trade again. Perhaps on a probationary term. I was willing to do the honorable thing. I am not questioning my "vigilante" tag that you put on my name, I am actually proud of what I did and stand by it. I don't resent it. I said it a few times. If it means a tag for that reason, be it. I will appeal it and fight my case in your appeals forum for that (which i am about to do once i finish this thread post). What worries me is how quickly people come on to the forum and judge me for being a scammer. Fair enough, they are entitled to their opinion, but as an admin (for the sake of provoking any further arguments that are not helpful in the matter I will leave your names out) you need to conduct yourselves in a professional matter. So far I have only had Mattie come and confront me on the topic in a formal proper manner and a few other members who are non-admins. If you feel my charge is warranted, argue it in the place where it is due, the appeal forum thread. I am open to arguing with you on the symantics of the matter all day long there. Leaving comments such as "a scammer is a scammer" are very much the reason why "since you agreed to the trade by verifying it twice before accepting we can not help you in the matter any more" is frowned upon and why these types of forums and websites were created to begin with. You should be ashamed of yourselves and remember that these websites were created to protect people from this stupidity and that you were given the power you have to help the community, not stereotype in 1 paragraph and ban someone without even letting this appeal finish. How can you ban someone off your site before it was even clear what went down and why it was done. Have I EVER caused harm to anyone. Will my continuing to trade on your site and helping people EVER cause harm to ANYONE who didn't rightfully come onto your site to create harm to begin with? From the COUNTLESS numbers of times that people sent me their ENTIRE backpacks FIRST have I EVER used it as leverage or tried to hurt anyone? Did my "selfless" action really threaten your website SO MUCH that I derserved to be outright banned. Even though I have months of clean trading and 7 pages of SUPER praise rep? Again, it just goes to show you that I am right in saying you should be ashamed for forgetting why we have you around and what your role in this community is. Both you admins on the site are a shame to this community and I am NOT AFRAID to say it out loud for all to hear.

I will NEVER go and "revenge" scam any admin that disagrees with me or decided that I deserve to be banned. That would just make me a scammer and a hypocrite for the action that I have taken in the first place. Will I go and start a new account to trade again and use the "loopholes" in the system, that I will decide after I see what the final judgement is in the matter. Do I want to do it, no. Will I take actions in to my own hands if I feel the system that is meant to protect my trading rights is failed, YES!

Just like Daemons example I was simply pointing out the course of action I can take. None was taken. Last I checked we were all entitled to freedom of speech without persecution.

The system in place never failed, you just went about it all wrong. And nobody here is to blame, that is your fault.

You seem like a nice guy but what you did in the end deprived someone of an item, its still scamming someone.

Pinted, I dont know your background so i wont judge you.

I will say this:

I trade about 60 hours a week. I have at least 5-10 scammer attempts per week

5 months ago I traded 60 hours a week and have had maybe 1 a week at most.

The system in place IS failing. Scammers are evolving faster then the system. If no one fights back then soon it will be a market of "hunting ground" of noobs. Which it almost already is.

It still does not justify what you did.
And for an experienced trader like yourself to do that sort of thing, you should know better.

Like dronefly said this just isn't convincing. It may sound logical but you have to look beyond that. If the victim can show valid, ideally steamrep approved proof scamming the scammer to RETURN the item shouldn't be illegal. Please tell me why this would be bad by pointing out the consequences and not just using dry definitions.

That's on a whole different scale. And like I said earlier that's why the real world police can, most of the time, with the help of the court do something. They can actually lock that killer up in prison to ensure that he never kills someone again.

We can only mark his account and that's all. He can still sell his stuff as long as valve doesn't trade ban him. Sourceop, tf2tp, tf2outpost aren't the only sites someone can sell items on. When I told a scammer that he is getting marked he just laughed in my face and said he will manage to sell it anyways.
I want to wipe that smug grin out of the face of scammers.

The only problem I'm having right now is the unfair treatment that Dronefly got. It's a pretty unanimous decision that the bottom line is: he scammed a scammer, and should get marked, motives being irrelevant.

Now where this starts to get iffy is the fact that something very similar was pulled off about 3-4 days ago, and the people in question didn't get marked. The bottom line was the same for both, they scammed a scammer.

Why should Dronefly get marked and not the other guys?

Because I'm not afraid to voice my actions in public and such strong provocative statements must be hushed and made example of. If this was done low key and involved an admin as a "middleman" then everyone looks the other way, bt when someone screams "enough" and isn't scared to bring this topic to open forum then quick drastic actions must be taken to silence him/her. Haven't you heard? Rebellious talk is forbidden and is punishable in this community. Freedom of speech is not allowed here. Especially on sourceop where most of the scammers seem to be festering anyways. I am starting to see the bigger picture here. I have been looking into archives for quite a few hours now. Something many people should do if they want to get a better understanding of this website and the blatant favoritism that exists amongst moderators and friends. I always knew this unfair stuff occurred on sourceop (just go read the flame section and how many people have been banned for exercising their freedom of speech) but it saddens mento realize the one place I always trusted to help us know who is trusted and who isn't is looking more and more like just a "cool kids club" which reminds me very much of certain unusual community that has been in the spotlight not too long ago. I guess I now know what I'm dealing with. I don't care which way this goes as I will continue doing what I do and I have enough people who know me to vouch for my honesty and integrity. Brand your little brand and put your little club back in order. I wouldn't be surprised if this entire thread mysteriously disappears soon. But I will nit quiet down and will continue to speak openly like our nations have fought so hard for my right to do so. And I will honor the fallen people who stood up to these kinds of policed states by standing proud and not letting a boys club try to hush me. So as log as I am allowed I will continue to voice my beliefs and confront wrong doers. All the most noble and honorable people in history stood up to "policed" policies because their will to stand up for what's right was stronger than their fear of the punishment. I will not let them be dishonoured. I have seen an learned about too much hatred and policed societies and the horrible things that have occred because of them. I will never stop repeating this: what I have done, I have done proudly without an ounce of remorse. If given the opportunity I will do it again and again because doing what's right is more important than anything else you guys can say or mark against me b

No, because you post a wall of text about how you're our saviour every time somebody says something. If you had come to SR and said I did this, I just wanted to help you would have got away with a caution tag at most. But now you're a dick about it so SR decided to lay the biggest punishment they can.

Saying you're gonna start a new account with a new email/ip wont help you at all.

Any I still believe that 2 wrongs don't make a right, no matter how much of an asshat you are.

Dronefly, the last thing you want to do is resort to insults.

We're trying as best as we can to help you, but it's getting increasingly difficult.