Does any work actually ever get done here?

Like I've said before couldn't it just be easier to lock off the scam reports now to stop that backlog building up? Then just having it so it redirects you to a page where you can see all the communities affiliated with SteamRep and tell people to report scammers there instead of building up on the backlog?

I am not so sure about that. 6000 reports is what has built up over 10-11 months of essentially no one doing reports. There are many affiliate communities who deal with scammer tags. 13 other communities should be able to deal with the average inflow of steamrep scammer reports.

Plus if you count together, there are a lot more Affliate Admins than currently SteamRep Admins, so if they handle that in time, there won't be any backlog.

Great, a volunteer.

@Mattie

"What I'll be discussing with the other SR admins also is perhaps a "Report a Scam" initial page that lets you pick the community and it directs you to that community's location for reporting scams and appeals. With a fallback to SR if no better community exists."

That would be an extraordinary leap forward so far as actually submitting reports, I'm glad to see that's something being considered. Such a setup would require a lot of time and effort. Might I suggest doing a mockup before hand so that people could get a feel for what that would function like? Unveiling something like an improved reporting system might also be a good time to do some kind of "donation drive" as time and bandwidth are not free.

I had not realized that trade servers had become so irrelevant, but it makes sense considering steams push for more trading of smaller less valuble items in a more casual fashion. Are extremely low level scams being taken as reports or ignored? With the advent of trading cards I can forsee a large number of reports for very minor scams, I'm not sure SteamRep is properly serving the community if those kinds of reports are being given the same kind of time and effort as larger more organized scamming. Especially considering the current state of tag permanence.

Tag permanence is another issue that could be handled in a new way. I have no doubt this has been explored before as you all seem like pretty clever people, might it be worth considering having tags that expire after a set period of time? Three months? Six? A year? I strongly doubt it would in anyway increase the instances of scamming, and would instead be re-introducing people who have done wrong and now (hopefully) know better into the community. Those who have made mistakes might have insights that others do not, and chances are if they're never given a chance... they won't share them.

I truly do not mean to be rude, but when It was recently stated by Pretender that nothing is getting done. Once that fact is out there, why should I change my status to act as if he had never said that.

Not saying I disagree with you, I don't think shutting down reports is the way to go at all. I am just expanding or elaborating on ideas proposed by others elsewhere in this thread. I haven't put forth any of my own ideas, yet.


In short so far this topic has produced the following ideas.

1) A system in which (automatically or by mods) tags are placed for anyone who is reported in a thread thread. The tag is an "under investigation" tag. This will reduce serial scammers who have avoiding being tagged from continuing to scam, as anyone who views their steamrep will see this new status. It will not cut down the backlog of reports, but will supply a temporary and long-term solution to anyone who is not immediately marked as a scammer

2) Close Reports and let everything go to affiliate communities.
Purpose: More admins = More reports taken
More reports taken = less backup on steamrep; allows admins on SteamREP to handle older reports while the affiliates take care of new ones

You said in another thread that anyone who scams receives a perma Scammer tag, yet you allow them to make an appeal, and they get mad for no one looking at an appeal that will be denied anyways.
Can't you make it official statement that "appeals is only for false claims" and nothing more?


Here's another simple idea.
Add a "Complain about a Scammer" forum section (Completely needs a better name).
This section is for scam reports you won't look at, but anyone can search up.

If there's a Phisher, hijacker, or CD key scammer around.. I want to at least know about it, even if you guys have no plan on taking the case.

I'm sad to hear of your disappointment in me. Perhaps I can repair whatever expectations you had of me and allay your fears of my lack of understanding of the problem in one fell stroke, or, at least one fell post.

First, I said that SteamRep does book-keeping, and indeed I was speaking only of the software; the staff as I mentioned in my last paragraph most explicitly is a huge part of what SteamRep does, and is by far a much more important asset than the software that makes up the SteamRep website:

On my "deep misunderstanding of what it takes to deal with trust and reputation fairly in such a community.": I must admit I have not had the experience of writing 'a SteamRep' myself, so please take what I say with as many pinches of salt as necessary, but – I will make it clear I am talking only of the software of the site – I think I am to a degree correct when I say that the primary function of SteamRep as a software is to allow users to view marks, and to allow staff to as easily as possible to convene to complete and track reports in order to make those marks, and to provide whatever tools that they might need to do this.

On this function, I believe the current and partially forum-based model to this aim is not capable of managing the workload. People who take their time to be a pillar of the community by devoting their time and energy to such a wearing practise deserve a specifically crafted piece of software that caters to their needs.

I will admit I am not a SteamRep admin, but the symptoms appear to me, as someone who (perhaps in naïveté) believes that a good and healthy community is supported by great software to indicate that SteamRep needs to rebuild itself around what a SteamRep admin needs. This is from an outsider noticing the windows are all fogged up and assuming they need to adjust the air conditioning.

I can't be sure unless an active admin tells me so:– SteamRep admins, do you think that a rebuilding of SR specifically to fit its place in the community would be of some benefit? I will admit unless this is true my position is just the misunderstandings of an outsider.

I am not expecting anything to "magically" appear, as I'm sure you realise. So, if as you say if nothing has to remain static, and that it needs to evolve why does my position that SR needs to be remodelled seem so outlandish to you? We seem to have the same opinion on SR's future, yet you seem to be against radical change and I can't understand why.

I would like to see SR with a fresh face, and I have heard people in the community say the same. The tools you mention should be part of the flow of the new websites UI, I think that bolting them on to an old codebase will make them hard to write and strange to use.

If that is not possible, I believe the best way to pursue your idea of an evolving SteamRep would be to open-source it on Github or alike, so developers can fork it and add on these additional features you envision. I also agree they need to be made.

I understand what you're saying, but SteamRep is not Facebook. It is not a multi-billion dollar company, not by a parsec. I don't think this standpoint applies.

I agree that problems are rarely solved by technology alone, but I think proscribing a treatment composed entirely of HR changes is too much a polar opposite.

My suggestion (be it wise or not): Open-source SR and allow the community to help improve it.

I await your response with great interest.

Edit: TL;DR: I was talking about SR as a software, not SR as an organisation.

An idea, if you put less man power into a system that you can see people have the capability to report to, put more man power into solving the reports, make more trusted mods admins. make two groups of admins that work together to get a list of reports done. Teamwork always helps (you can communicate through steam and teamspeak I guess) or if all of that fails make a 24/7 call centre in india.

@OP They're busy lollygagging on the forums censoring posts they don't agree with.

The biggest disappointment here is SteamREP. Zero advancements were made in the past year to make SR a better place and to ensure safer trades for people. Sure you can argue the fact that you couldn't because you got swamped by thousands of reports, but you made this mess yourself by using Xenforo to file reports (LOL). You have one of two choices; 1) Abandon SR all together. Believe me it won't make a difference in the trading world. It's not like they're actively protecting people. Besides, let STEAM handle this, where they have zero bias only but to protect their product from scum, they're doing a great job too! Or 2) start a crewing talented programmers and mods to lighten the load. This route 100% means you gotta hit the bricks, you've demonstrated your lack of concern for SteamREP. Before you give me the classic response of "oh no we can't trust those peeps!", pretty soon you won't be trusted, so please reconsider. You took on the torch to protect people, but right now you're failing at it.

You sound like a broken record. I listed two solutions above that solve your current issues. Continuing down this path will lead to nowhere. Actually it would be worse than ever. Giving newbies a false sense of security.

This is a bandaid solution, won't fix anything long term.

Agreed, talented individuals make for powerful assets. I can't see how SR still won't accept voluntary, perhaps even professional level programming work on a silver platter.

Technical? Process? Maintain? You speak as if SteamREP isn't built on a legacy system conglomerated with a decent-at-best forum software. You make SR a difficult bureaucracy because you chose it so. Do you think having an efficient and easy to work with system would be having these problems? I didn't think so either.

Don't be a kiss ass. No one likes a boot licker. His expectations aren't worth your time, he's throwing you for a loop.

Also known as don't waste your time with suggesting, it'll be ignored.

----

I apologize if I rustled anyone's jimmies with this post, but the reality needs to be heard as is. I can sugar coat my posts all day but the impact won't be there. I wouldn't be surprised if this post gets deleted/edited and I get banned.

The lessons to be learned today are to quit while you're ahead, or to trust people. Not everyone is a shady a✿✿✿✿✿✿ looking to commit something malicious.

-Tee

@ Teeird

I don't mean to sound accusatory but please take a second look at your comments and the way you have carried yourself. It appears that your desire to form and maintain disdain for people you disagree with is more important to you than any positive change. You seem to be using the possibility of change to provide yourself with an excuse to attack those whom you have disagreements with, this is neither mature, nor productive. Instead of kindness and hope for betterment your comments are littered with outright insults.

"I apologize if I rustled anyone's jimmies with this post, but the reality needs to be heard as is. I can sugar coat my posts all day but the impact won't be there. I wouldn't be surprised if this post gets deleted/edited and I get banned."

With this closing statement you have painted yourself as an authority without actually adding anything to the discourse, and provided yourself poorly justifiable "victim" status in the event your comments are not received as you wish them to be. I would strongly suggest you take a step back an analyze your mindset. I do not mean to imply that you are incorrect, I mean to imply that you do your position no service by the manner in which you've communicated it.

Firstly, I've already made a warning about berating/insulting the SR staff and its efforts. While you may have opinions and I welcome you to share them, we can all do without personal attacks.

The assertion that SR has made zero advancement in the past year is completely false. Off the top of my head, I could cite the fact that SR now has a form to report which allows for easier reporting and less invalid/improperly formatted reports or that there's been a number of new staff members added to the team to assist with reports, myself included.

I've always been a vocal member of the community, I've called out SR for its missteps, I've spoken and 'argued' with SR admins before on things and I've always wanted to make sure that the community was best served. And I do understand there is a problem, I don't think any of us are blind to it. It's just a large matter of finding a fix to it.

And as much as I hate being cliche, but many of the proposed fixes are easier said then done. And there will be more topics like this, there will be more ideas, insults and complaints. Things are being done. And trust me, I don't always agree with the choices that are made. Sometimes it pains me to just be an observer in some decisions, I do think there are a number of changes to be made, I believe that the best idea may not always come from those within an organization, and I love conversations that allow for amble discussion and the flow of ideas.

So Teeird, I don't believe that you are correct. I do believe that things have changed and things have progressed. But you are entitled to your opinion and I welcome it. I encourage you to add to this discussion, to give ideas. I definitely recommend against just insulting SR, as it's difficult to seriously consider someone's ideas when they're being thrown in the midst of attacks and accusatory remarks.

I encourage anyone to be part of the process to give their thoughts, add to the discussion, don't demean or devalue it.

I only appear to be a "kiss-ass" because I value actual change through politeness and reason over asking SR to just explode and then getting someone else (steam or a talented team) to pick up the pieces and reassemble a functioning community for you. I have respect for what Mattie and the current and past SR staff have done to make SR the cornerstone of the community it is today. You should take note that if SR wasn't as vitally important as it is we wouldn't be having this conversation about how to continue its functioning. A good new SR really can't, or, at least shouldn't be made without learning from whatever mistakes old SR made, and likely could not function without old SR's collaboration. Can we ease the tone a bit? We're amongst friends.

I agree with some of your sentiment, however. The latter part of this post should make this clear.

This is the same argument that GCHQ and the NSA used to justify keeping their highly promiscuous surveillance secret, and the crux of this argument is two points: firstly, terrorists (in this case scammers) do not already know what tools the organisation has has and secondly terrorists (scammers) would have an advantage or some benefit as a result of knowing what tools the organisation has.

SteamRep is not part of the intelligence community and is not secretly and subversively gathering information (I hope), and the methods it uses to gather information I imagine are not nearly so complex in their design that knowing their very design would compromise them. When I say open-source SR, I am not saying lay bare the every piece of information SR has on everyone, or even any information it has on anyone, I am not even suggesting that you open-source every tool that SR has and every function it is capable of, all I am suggesting is that SR's code (or some subset of it) should be open for the TF2 community to contribute to, which I think makes a lot of sense considering its role in the TF2 community.

Putting aside the point that I don't mean to say that all of SR's tools have be laid bare, I still think they should. Given that scammers don't already know the extent of SR's tools (and I can't think of a reason why they shouldn't), what could they gain by knowing how they work? If the tools are anything like those I have access to, they can't be stopped regardless of knowledge of them – which is how all good systems should work. If you're worried about security (and perhaps you should be), I would be the first to volunteer to do a security audit over several months – depending on codebase size – of SR's code.

I agree with you, but I would also say that there's a point at which there's too much icing on the cake. The advantage of opening up SR for development is community participation, but we could have a much better designed SR in my opinion if we started from scratch to fill the position SR has in the community right now, rather than working on top of SR's age'd codebase that I imagine did not forsee the difficulties that SR now sees.

I would argue that unlike a school whose focus is teaching, which can be done sans- computers; SR's functions are entirely reliant on those 5-year old school computer systems: it would be as though they were teaching computing every lesson. But as you say, as a software developer it's easy to see software as a solution to everything: what are these issues that need to be fixed and that must be fixed before we can fix the others with software? What do you see as the fundamental issues with SR that need addressing?

Your answer didn't mention a single change to the software functionality of SR, so I assumed you weren't making any. I apologise, it was clearly the wrong assumption to make.

I don't want this to sound critical or condescending, I have a lot of respect for the amount of time and effort you've spent making SR what it is.

Mattie DOES change stuff regularly in the back end, making notes to the public would serve no purpose.

On the argument that our "tools" are to be become public, that will not happen. While we aren't NSA or w/e, we do have to mind that most of our sources CANNOT be public, for a lot of reasons, and a number of those reasons force us to not publicize them. Also the amount of resources it would take would require us to have cluster of servers, which is totally not possible with the income for SR we have.

There is a lot of talk about "creating new tools" but the main problems with those are:
- SR server is already close to the max of what it can chew.
- Development times are often multiple months or even longer.
- Return on Investment on those tools is pretty slim.
- Due to the above, before such new "tool" is there its say 6 months down, and when its there it doesn't speed up much the processes on SR.

The only real options we have is to get more ppl to handle reports. I've not looked at reqruitment for a while, but maybe I'll spend some time on that in near future.

If the trading community keeps growing at the rate it has been growing, SR will clearly not be able to keep up with it, considering it is already not keeping up with the current community. I don't see how one can foreshadow a working site in a near future considering the current site/server pairing is already not enough to comply with the current community requirements.

I'm making an assumption here, and forgive me if it's a wrong one, but isn't it because only one person is currently working on development (and on his free time)? What Zemnmez is suggesting is a team of talented developers - this would speed things up considerably.

The return is the trust the community will put back on SR, which has been slowly fading away for quite some time.

A "new" site could considerably speed and organize things up in a way that a new server wouldn't even be necessary. One can't possibly think that using Xenforo is the best way to do this. And a fast and reliable work environment is a great way to keep those volunteering happy and motivated to do their work.

My opinion is that even if SR doubles its crew it won't make a significant long term difference.

I agree with Zemnmez's idea (at least the parts I got in contact with, and not because we work on the same site). I think SR needs a re-design as it has been proved that the current model is not able to handle the incoming load, and for a myriad of reasons. I think SR should take a regulatory/auditing position, and act only as a last instance on reports/appeals, providing at the same time a framework for communities to integrate themselves. The work - first instances - should be left to the communities to handle. And this work would be a great way to evaluate a community that applies for affiliation.

The only issue with steamrep here is the point that there has to be man-power in this community (all mods and admins on steamrep work extremely hard and I respect that greatly). Steamrep was created to basically 'police' the trading scene. This is an incredible task as it is, we can all see by the sheer influx of reports. But the fact is the site can't process and assess each case. Therefore the only thing steamrep can do to rectify the situation is to hire more people, if they don't do this then there is no point in the websites report function and may as well be left as a database. Your situation currently is like the police saying we can only investigate a handful of new cases so the mass murder from 6 months ago can't be addressed as we are too busy (not as serious of course). I'm sorry but I its complete bullsh*t that you need to redesign the current model. You just need man power and that's all there is too it.