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Dupes and Reputable Dupe Trading Practises

Discussion in 'SteamRep General Discussion' started by [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé, Apr 29, 2013.

  1. [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé

    [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé New User

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    Hi all,

    With the ongoing contoversy and stigma associated with dupes I felt that it was time to get some expert consenus on the subject of trading them.

    Pricing:

    What is the current overall community viewpoint about dupe to non-dupe price ratios?
    Do unusuals fetch a lower price if duped?
    Do ultra rare Genuines, or ultra rare Vintages fetch a lower price if duped?
    I hear and often see that currency promos such as buds don't seem to get discounted if duped. Is that the case in general?

    Reputable dupe trade practices:

    I gratefully trade with a circle of classy, generous, and honest traders/admins and the feedback that I get from them is that if you knowingly sell a duped item, you are morally obligated to share that info if you plan to maintain your community reputation and respect. Selling them at full price by not disclosing the truth about it's duped status was frowned upon when brought up and considered a scam.
    Though I've been told that not disclosing it's duped status does not constitute a scam by Steamrep standards, does that not constitute shady trading behaviour?
    What about not disclosing AND selling a cheaper dupe at full clean price (acting as if it's clean for profit)?
    What if a dupe is sold by a website that offers no disclaimer that they freely buy and sell all dupes at full non dupe prices (assuming that the dupe is generally cheaper), with no courtesy of exchanging for a clean version?

    What is the current standard for reputable trade practices for dupes?
  2. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    The "standard" if one can speak of one, is that if the "buyer" of a item doesn't want a dupe, its up to the buyer to find out if it is a duped item.
    Also, nobody is advertising their stuff as a duped item or w/e.

    If duped, and they know, ppl see those items as being lower value, down to 50% original value.

    The exceptions being the "special" duped items, who form a risk to one's accounts: Duped vintage max head etc.
    For Valve is/was hunting those for some reason.

    Recently in another topic was mentioned TF2WH selling duped items for normal price, and I can't blame them for it, for going to automate detection which are duped is a lot of effort without much payoff, and would make it hard for them to accept items on TF2WH.
  3. [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé

    [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé New User

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    Since I'm not hearing much of a response , I though I would pool some of the search results I found. ( not much sadly )

    From here: http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/selling-gifted-duped-items-an-offense.4410/#post-14453

  4. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    There are so many "dupe" items in the game that is really is non-issue with sensible traders. Remember this, only part of them were illegally "duped" back when this was possible, the rest are "copied" by Valve as part of Support Ticket process. If you want to blame anyone, blame the lack of funding and manpower Valve directs at dealing with hijacks or more specifically fake hijacks.

    Certainly there are pedants who moan about dupes, the majority of them are traders who gleefully try to buy hats for peanuts then proceed to sell them for a very healthy profit. Really anyone even mentioning dupes on a hat under 10 buds is plain silly. If I was buying a scorching TC, I might investigate ID numbers, for some 5 buds hat I would not bother. Actually I have never once checked any hat I ever bought, I buy them to wear. I have bought many lower tier "dupe" hats, and have never had any fuss selling them. At the end of the day price points matter, sell something at a reasonable price, it will sell. I have always sold hats (dupe or not) at just below market price, and few people I deal with care if a hat is a dupe or not.

    For sure you should take care with higher value hats on sale for suspicious prices, and the well known high end vintages. Very easy to trade hijacked items or items directly from scammers, and when Valve Ban or SR tag is possible in such cases, no one should be taking chances without checking bona fides of highly suspect items.

    As for price, I think DS means "gifted" hehe, well he doesn't trade much. There is no reason for any price differential, and I have never had problems selling any hat if my price was reasonable. Ignore the traders who use "dupe" as a leverage to buy your hat for pennies, you will see these same people selling them for normal prices the next day usually. There is a buyer for every hat, the trick is finding them. I buy hats enough under market price that I can make a few keys and still sell at a decent price, and if a hat is a dupe, one should never hide this fact, ever.
  5. [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé

    [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé New User

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    Lying by omission

    Also known as a continuing misrepresentation, a lie by omission occurs when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. When the seller of a car declares it has been serviced regularly but does not tell that a fault was reported at the last service, the seller lies by omission. It can be compared to dissimulation.


    Considering the above definition pulled from Wikipedia, wouldn't omitting the fact that one's item is duped constitute a scam?
    VenGanZa likes this.
  6. ForteSP

    ForteSP New User

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    If a murder occurs in my house do I have to tell the buyer a murder took place? No.... Legally I don't have to say a thing.

    You aren't lying by omission.
  7. [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé

    [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé New User

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    Depends on the location, but you are still lying by omission. It is an exception in any case where legal.
    So pertaining to dupes you are saying that omitting something relevant to it's true value and causing a risk of getting tagged as "Trading with a known Scammer" ( dupe histories look real funny as they are combined as a result of their original id ) is not a lie of ommision on the level of a scam? Really?
    I just perused an appeal of a trader who was tagged after he bought a duped Vintage Buds from a "legit" source, but the next entry in history showed his pair as in the possesion of a marked scammer ( the other pair that he didn't have anything to do with ) .
  8. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    We must be very with checking item ID, especially where an item such as V Buds was duped various times, you cannot presume person X traded to person Y as per list.

    It would be good if people didn't try to mix up legal nomenclature with TF2 since it is quite different to practices in society which do have solid laws to govern them (contract law/property law for example). If anyone wishes to test legal aspects of transactions in a virtual economy, feel free to begin court proceedings, but without extant and specific rulings we can only fall back to generalisations. It is prudent to remember when purchasing an item, an element of caveat emptor always exists and common sense dictates this also must be taken into question, indeed courts also consider this in most countries.

    In other words, either check items or ask the right questions, do not expect or presume that someone is going to do that for you.
  9. [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé

    [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé New User

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    From what I understand, some reputable trade servers ban for not disclosing duped items prior to or during a trade on their servers.
    Which makes one wonder if the definition of a scam is open to individual discretion for trade admins ( on a case by case basis? ), or just not agreed upon by admins.
  10. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    I will happily ban someone on my servers if someone is asked about "dupe" and lies, but there is no obligation on a trader to say for example "Selling duped Team Captain". If someone is ask "is your hat a dupe" the correct response it to state yes/no or I do not know, and the buyer should confirm this via normal means if they so desire.

    SR has specific rules, each and every server or network (even those who work closely with SR) have their own rules, and can ban anyone for any reason they deem fit. One thing is certain however, selling a "dupe" hat is not a crime, nor a scam (unless it is hijacked or was traded from a scammer).
  11. quarian :3

    quarian :3 New User

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    You should probably stop telling those who ask about your hats that dupes dont matter then.
    In a sense its lying, straying from the question.
  12. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    Dupes do not matter, but if someone asks "is your hat a dupe" and you lie and say it isn't, then of course you are telling a big fat lie.
  13. ForteSP

    ForteSP New User

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    I can buy a duped vintage bud for 10 pure.

    I can't buy a clean vintage bud for 30 pure.

    Enough said.
  14. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    ForteSP it might pay you to actually previous posts, rather than making a redundant comment which is covered. Or did you not read " I was buying a scorching TC, I might investigate ID numbers, for some 5 buds hat I would not bother." and of course something like V Buds falls squarely into that territory, especially since almost all of them are mass duped to hell and back.
  15. [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé

    [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé New User

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    So chaotic, Steam's Scam report Criteria asks " What were the terms of the trade agreed upon?" to determine a scam.
    So in effect "Did you get what you asked for"?
    Seems that if you say V. Buds, and they ask for V. Buds, but you give them duped V. Buds" that would raise a flag at Steam, no?
  16. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    Only if from a hijack case they are working for example, as has occurred in the past with high profile incidents, oh and certain items like V Buds have indeed been a past item of interest, but only because of who they were pilfered from, not by virtue of being a particular item.

    Valve doesn't pay much attention to "dupe" items in general, and can you think why? Well guess who every single "dupe" in recent memory comes from... VALVE!

    Almost every time a hijacked account is restored or has items restored, a copy of the original item is granted, invariably leaving a "dupe" existent in the game. This is almost always the outcome, since Valve isn't going to punish people who bought items in good faith once they escape in the wild via trades.

    It is really a little silly that people use the rather pejorative "dupe" which is more properly applied to those items which were illegally gained when it was still possible, as opposed to items which Valve routinely restores (sadly in many cases to people who fake hijack attempts.). It seems to me there is a bit of a distinction, and it isn't just semantics for those who lose items to hijackers.
  17. Randinie Grey Beard

    Randinie Grey Beard New User

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    It is hard to put a blanket rule or definition on whether people care about 'Duped' items. Many care, many don't. The seller does have some clear and obvious guidelines he/she must follow but ANY buyer should do his/her homework for any item they wish to purchase. Do you always trust the used car salesman? For me, and this can differ for others, information is everything, trust no one but be nice and get the information myself. How many scams/issues would have been avoided if the buyer did his homework? I agree with -GoV- VenGanZa TF2-T [A] about not checking or caring on low end/value items but one must also remember that for every item you don't check, that is a risk you, the buyer, take and in the end you only have yourself to blame if you get stung. Its not a perfect system but if you protect your self, you can avoid a lot of headaches for you, for server admins, for SteamRep.
  18. Cuttlefish

    Cuttlefish New User

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    I consider it my responsibility, as a buyer, to check for dupes where necessary (where the item being duped would affect the price) - if someone sells me a dupe, and I didn't check? Tough luck for me, I don't expect to be fed every single piece of info about an item, especially when it's not to the buyer's advantage.
  19. [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé

    [SÐ] 亗 JùñGLé New User

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    So they only pay attentiom to scams if they were involving hijacked items?
  20. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    Valve's action in a nutshell:
    - Scam reports: turf, and if severe do some trade bans/lock
    - Hijacks: revert items within range, lock everybody around.