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How does sharking work exactly?

Discussion in 'SteamRep General Discussion' started by Maddux, Jun 6, 2013.

  1. Eoj Nawoh

    Eoj Nawoh Retired Staff Partner Community

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    1. Sharking isn't about being the price police. It's about swindling. It's more about how then how much.

    2. It depends on the conversation, if you're sitting there lying and saying your laser weapon is worth 25 keys and that this isn't that rare or etc. You'd be in the wrong, but if you say, hey your item is worth 25 keys, but I'd pay 10 keys or etc, then you'd be fine. Deception is the key ingredient.

    3. Like I said, it really depends on the situation. Cut and dry, it doesn't look like your deceiving anyone, but that being said it's hard to evaluate such hypotheticals. In a real life situation, there will be logs, conversations and other evidence to evaluate and we'd be able to judge, case by case, on that.
    Melkor likes this.
  2. Maddux

    Maddux New User

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    Ah, alright. I didint realize how much moral values played a role in this. On your 2nd example, do people really say "your item is worth 20 keys, but ill pay you 10 keys for it"? That would basically tell the other trader that you are lowballing him and that he could be getting a lot more for his item.
    When your database is 100% done, do you plan on functioning like Steam Rep? Where you have an API or plugin to run on servers and websites so that if a person is sharked, they are then banned from the server?
  3. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    In such a case, there is no problem at all. Informed consent is what matters here.

    As for sharking, currently there are no agreed upon rules TF2 wide, and each server bans as it sees fit.

    There are things happening behind the scenes to remedy this, however there are major obstacles and I am not going into details, suffice to say that it does not matter what any individual server chooses to do, bans, database or whatever, it is all meaningless in the larger picture until certain sweeping philosophical changes take place in an ivory tower far far away :)
  4. Eoj Nawoh

    Eoj Nawoh Retired Staff Partner Community

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    To your first point, I've had people say that to me. And I've seen it before. It's not always cut and dry but it's happened in one form or another.

    As for our database, that's a goal for us eventually, but the main goal I see is getting the word out there to stop sharking from being advantageous. I've had many say that fighting against sharks is useless, including many admins I know. That the victims of sharking, much like the victims of scamming, won't know about the site and they'll still get scammed/sharked.

    But it's all about getting it out there, while yes, it may not lead to the new traders or the players who don't trade to check the site, because they have no idea what it is. But now when the larger traders, the ones who know what's going on, the ones that check SR, see that this person constantly sharks people, then perhaps they don't buy it. And when sharks realize that they've hurt themselves, that by their greed they've lost the market, that their actions can and will have consequences, it'll let people realize, there's profit in being fair.

    Sharking may give you riches, but it'll leave you morally bankrupt.
  5. AcesGamer

    AcesGamer User

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    Except labeling people as sharks does next to nothing. Sure some of them get banned from outpost or whatever, but it does absolutely nothing to their ability to trade. Just look at people like Teeird & company; None of these past "convicted" people have had trouble trading since then, and shouldn't either. The items acquired were not scammed, thus no negative reproductions should be had. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not defending sharking, but this whole "educating the community about sharking" is a stupid idea, and a waste of time.

    I stopped accepting shark reports when I realized that there's no point in continuing the "hunt on sharks". It's just not worth involving thyself in sorting through baseless reports of "this guy lowballed me, he's a shark". Just go check the AF2/MCT archives to see for yourself; the actual amount of people convicted for sharking is laughable. Maybe you should have listened to your fellow admins. I mean c'mon, HG got like 10 shark reports in all of its existence. Is making a database for 20 people that no one will check (because there's no consequence) even worth it?

    Sorry if this comes off as overly negative, but it's the truth. The community hardly cares for such a trivial issue.
  6. Eoj Nawoh

    Eoj Nawoh Retired Staff Partner Community

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    Just because there's going to be baseless reports doesn't mean the cause isn't worth it. SR has reports without evidence, yet it still takes them in. It will require hard work, but for us, it is worth the effort. Perhaps the past individuals got away with it, but still we can try. We can show these individual with the evidence against them and make a difference. Bans off multiple communities have been increasing and the community is changing.

    The items may not have been scammed, but the reason people don't buy from scammers is because of their moral compass and their understanding of what scamming is. The community is what dictates that scamming is wrong, and makes it something unacceptable.

    Whether it proves futile or not, we will try.
  7. AcesGamer

    AcesGamer User

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    This is mostly incorrect. While most "high level traders" think like that, I can guarantee you that 99% of the community does not. The reason people don't buy from scammers is because they are scared of steamrep, and the repercussions of having a scammer tag on their account. If there was no negative consequence to doing so, people wouldn't care about buying scammed items. It's a video game.
  8. Maddux

    Maddux New User

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    With a sharking database, your trying to make the trading scene conform to a set of guidelines. In the end TF2 and Dota 2 are just video games with communities built around them.

    Exactly. Steam Rep has their API and plugin on so many different servers and websites that if you are marked here, you are marked form a huge amount of places. Scamming can also get you trade banned, while sharking cannot. It may not be the most moral thing to do but why does sharking matter so much? It should not be the buyers responsibility to tell the seller that their item is worth way more than they are offering, it should be the responsibility of both the buyer and seller to make sure they are getting what they want.

    Lets say i go to your website and see somebody is marked as a Shark, what exactly does that tell the person? Does it say "dont trade with this person" like Steam Rep does?

    Moral compasses are refereed to when there is a punishment to be afraid of, if there was no Steam Rep and no punishment of buying scammed items, everybody's moral compass would be thrown to s✿✿✿, no matter how much you tell your self it would not be, it would. I don't support sharks either, but it happens. If i scam somebody (i would never) then i'm banned from tons of servers and websites i enjoy using and have the fear of being trade banned, but if i "shark" somebody and your plugin and such gets put on places like skial, then that's ruining the experience for a user who has yet to break any of valves TOS or any rules with steam at all.

    There are plenty of places to check "item prices" but trying to prevent users who "shark" from enjoying the game they have just does not seem right. Scammers and sharks are way to different to be given the same punishment. Thats like giving a person who murders somebody and somebody who steals a bike life in jail, they are just far to different things to receive the same punishment.
  9. morningfox'ed

    morningfox'ed New User

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    LOL. Moral compass, this is why nearly all the GoV admins which is supposed to be an affiliated community and most high level traders have some sort of a niko dupe that they bought for 5-10% of the price they currently have set on the market.

    Nobody cares whether someone sharks items, and thinking that having a sharking database to prevent it is incredibly stupid. Most of my sharks I do are from kids that simply have absolutely no clue or the mental capacity to find out what a spreadsheet or outpost is. The belief that these kids are then going to go check out my steamrep (which I'm tagged already) then a database to check if I'm tagged as a shark is lmao. Kids give unusuals for a couple ref and they are happy with it.

    You would at laugh how many people with so called moral compasses throw everything out the window for a secret tc for 15 buds.
  10. morningfox'ed

    morningfox'ed New User

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  11. ForteSP

    ForteSP New User

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    A Filthy Streetrat likes this.
  12. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    Morningfox, you know me quite well I am sure :)

    I suspect you know full well I care. You show me substantive proof that any GOV Admin has done anything which would breech SR rules, and I will fire them + have them tagged instantly, and if you have evidence of any of them "sharking" or dealing unfairly or in an unethical manner with anyone, they suffer a similar fate.

    Add me and furnish any concrete proof please, rather than levelling accusations randomly.
  13. Nathan Cash

    Nathan Cash New User

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    I agree with many of your points. HOWEVER. Buds go for more than 20 keys and you KNEW THAT. If you told someone they were worth 10 and you knew its easy to find a buyer for 20, that alone is deception. So if your trade actually did happen, I strongly suggest you trade him back. How would you feel if you were misled into selling buds for 10 keys.

    PS. I'm not sure if his example happened or not, just my thoughts.
  14. Maddux

    Maddux New User

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    I'v stated multiple times that these are all examples, NONE of these actually happened in relations to me.. In regards to what you said, buds are 20 keys because backpack.tf (and a few other price related websites) rates them at 20 + keys. If i were to create a website that merely had a page that said "buds are 10 keys", why then could i get in trouble with some website? Its hard to have deception with out a solid price set (in some respects), obviously scamming involves deception, but that's a different topic entirely.
  15. Nathan Cash

    Nathan Cash New User

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    Sorry bout that then.
  16. D2Girls

    D2Girls New User

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    I didn't mean to mention Mattie. I don't know why I did, actually. I know that Mattie always purchases his stuff with actual cash over paypal. But I am aware of many people who got to where they are through cases of extreme sharking. One of them is Teerid, I'm sure most of you know him. Perfect example of someone whos sharked a LOT, and gotten himself banned on many websites and servers over it, but is able to trade with relative impunity, since it's not really against any rules of trading, aside from obvious immoral things.
  17. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    Really?

    Well feel free to post details of individuals with evidence to support it http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?board=2.0

    I am always keen to remove sharks.
  18. Zyddie

    Zyddie New User

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    Now this post may not have anything to do with sharking but why do we call it sharking ? the shark (animal) is a lovely creature :eek: i love the shark and it seems cruel to me to abuse its name in such a crappy way :x

    Cant we find a animal we all hate and use that insted of sharks ?. Sharks are pretty, powerfull and lovely animals who is the oldest animal in the world that didnt have to change, now do tell me how does doing fraud or lying have ANYTHING to do with that ? :(

    Poor sharks :(
  19. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    Jellyfish? especially after seeing the movie Seven Pounds...
  20. Zyddie

    Zyddie New User

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    I can agree with Jellyfish those bastards are just well bastards!