1. There is no such thing as a "pending" ban or Steam admin. Anyone threatening your account is a scammer trying to scare you. Read more.

Exactly why should SteamRep restrict you?

Discussion in 'SteamRep General Discussion' started by Hng. - SO GODAMN BORED, Feb 15, 2013.

  1. Hng. - SO GODAMN BORED

    Hng. - SO GODAMN BORED New User

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    So I was chatting it up with a friend, and somehow ended up with the topic of the conversation being about SteamRep. Now, I'm not here intentionally to cause any drama or chaos but this might have been brought up by other individuals in the past, but I'll just post what's been on my mind.

    Why exactly should SteamRep control who you trade with? If you get a "Scammer" tag for trading with a "Scammer", in the end, you ultimately, and on most occasions will end up with a trade ban. Like honestly, that sounds pretty absurd to me. Trading is supposed to be fun. We get things that we want, we trade with people, and enjoy it for a game. But instead, many people in the trading community treat it as a economy where if you trade with a "marked scammer", you're like providing a terrorist with nuclear bombs to attack others. In reality though, we are all in fact playing a game in which I'm sure all of us would like to enjoy. So my point being is that, I don't see why we should let a site, in which and I quote from the SteamRep FAQ, "improve the safety of game-related trading" control who and what we trade for. My friend suggested the idea of that, "steamrep should be used as like a who to trust book", and "trading with someone should never get you a scammer tag
    ". If SteamRep was used like a book to see whom you can trust, and you trade with a "marked scammer" and get scammed, then it's your fault. I also know that SteamRep doesn't like the idea of helping scammer profit, but heck. Why are we letting a site control who we want to trade? In the world, there will always be people who are greedy, selfish, and the list goes on. The same applies to this game, trading wise. We can't control all the so called "scammers" in the real world, so why should we in this game?

    Another absurd thing that came up in the conversation with my friend are servers with the SteamRep plug-in. My friend claims that Lethal Zone servers have SteamRep plug-ins, and he saw someone get banned in a MGE server for being marked as a scammer on SteamRep. For those of you who don't know what MGE is, it's a server in which competitive or casuals go and train 1 v 1 straight up DM to improve their skills in TF2. Now tell me this. How is MGE and trading related? Why should people be banned in a server in which people would like to improve their TF2 skills, but cannot due to being banned due a TRADING related thing? Of course, the fella can always go about to another server, but why should he in the first place? People trying to play the game, enjoy the game, are being restricted by SteamRep. Imagine if UGC or ESEA (competitive leagues) banned people from participating due to a scammer tag. I recall seeing quite a few competitive players having a scammer tag on SteamRep, and that brings me to my next concern. Why should people be receiving caution tags for having "a high amount of scammer friends"? Can't people friend someone without having to check their SteamRep first, having the fear of them being a scammer? For example, you meet this competitive player that you want to friend. But you, being the SteamRep rule abiding person that you are, check the person's SteamRep only to see that the person you want to friend is a scammer. Guess I can't friend that person then because SteamRep might mark me if I have a high amount of scammer friends.

    To conclude, should we actually let a site control who we trade with, what we trade for, and who we friend? Can't we trade people for what we want for enjoyment in the game without having the fear of being marked as a scammer, or friending someone without having the fear of being cautioned? I, myself would be content with having SteamRep just as a "guidebook" in which we can search up users and see whether we can trust the person or not. Of course, the chances of that happening are probably close to Osama bin Laden being alive, but I still decided to post this to share my thoughts, open some minds and hopefully have others think what I'm thinking and see where I'm coming from. Again, I'm not here to cause any drama and I have the up-most respect for the admins who continuously work for the community to keep it as clean as it can be.

    So, I'd like to see what everyone else thinks. Discuss!
    ForteSP, Garry and headsnipe like this.
  2. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    You are free to choose servers which do not use SR plugin.

    Those members of the TF2 world who use SR plugin, choose to do so.

    Free world, your choice bro.

    Personally I am very thankful we have a flagship entity which toils together with the greater community to try to keep the bad boys at bay.
  3. headsnipe

    headsnipe New User

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    If this goes through this could make a dent in trading. Don't know if its going to be a good or bad one. It will make a big difference though and will create more ease in trading. Those who unknowingly trade with scammers shouldn't be punished for the act of another.
  4. Mattie!

    Mattie! SteamRep Admin

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    The trade with scammers rule is primarily in place because in the world of internet anonymity, it's very hard to tell the difference between (1) a scammer ring of people working together, (2) partners who are purposely brokering with scammers, and (3) just downright alts of scammers pretending to be different people. Because it's so hard to distinguish, the guidelines for maintaining your reputation are to avoid trading with them directly (and definitely not partnering with thieves) to avoid the appearance of association or laundering stolen goods. It's definitely not our policy to warn people about traders who make innocent mistakes-- the goal is to indicate those who willfully-neglect or work with scammers.

    In the end, a site like SteamRep is out to warn communities of people who have a reputation of scamming or working closely with scammers. Communities can choose how they want to participate, ignore this, etc. We try to be fair, but we won't always get it perfect-- but it's a volunteer service trying to reduce scammers taking advantage of innocent people. Our view is that scamming ruins fun far more than having to skip a trade with a thief.

    As for gaming servers running the plugin, those communities don't want scammers joining their servers where they might initiate trades with other players. That's their prerogative to install it on servers they own-- it's certainly nothing SteamRep requires. I'm certainly not sad if a server admin wants to keep proven thieves and accomplices off of their servers and away from other players, given how central item trading is to TF2.

    Note it isn't our policy to mark or CAUTION based on scammer friends alone-- that was done sometimes in the past, but is not our policy. We will display the number of scammer friends you have, though, so people can see the associates you keep and can make their own judgement regarding their integrity.
    Oz' dak1ne, DataStorm and Pretender like this.
  5. KarmaKarmaKarma

    KarmaKarmaKarma New User

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    I feel like steamrep is very hit or miss, Ive had some questionable friends who eventually got marked scammer and there was legitimate proof behind it, but sometimes its very unjust. I havent been seriously trading in a long time but I clearly remember a time when people were getting banned for things like leaving rep on someones profile then that person decided to go scam someone then bam youre marked scammer forever for just association. Half the time these arent forgiven unless this person has sucked up to everyone enough to be recognized by the people who matter, in which case they can get away with it. I dont think the current system works perfectly, If it was up to me it would be in the hands of Valve but Im pretty sure they dont care, the current system is established enough that no other one will ever replace it until TF2 dies it feels like. Things like people being banned from MGE servers or not being able to play in a league over some trading incident shouldn't happen though. My two cents.
  6. HeLLy

    HeLLy New User

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    Noone can stop that, not SR, not support, its like alcohol addict, noone can stop that
    Scammers were scamming , and they wont stop scamm, and people wont stop trading with scammers
    How i was duping, i will dupe and noone can stop me.
    You just can catch that its impossible to stop anyone with that, not in f✿✿✿✿✿✿ game, not even in a real life
  7. VenGanZa

    VenGanZa User

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    No one who unknowingly trades with a scammer is punished, and never was. Take careful note of the "knowingly".

    What are the penalties for trading or buying from SCAMMERs or obvious scammer alts?
    If you knowingly trade with scammers or obvious scammer alt accounts (with extremely low hours), you are putting your reputation at risk. SteamRep's policy is to be understanding when an innocent trader makes a mistake or when the monetary value is relatively low. Yet, we cannot encourage scammers to profit from their theft.
    • New traders: New traders who are unaware of SteamRep will not receive penalties to their reputations, but will receive a one-time warning.
    • First offense:
      • Item/Game trades: You will receive a one-time warning for any high-value item or game trade with a SCAMMER or an obvious scammer alternate account. (This warning will be a temporary CAUTION tag that will be removed when you contact SteamRep admins.)
      • Cash trades: You will receive a CAUTION reputation tag for buying high-value items from a marked scammer or obvious alternate scammer acount. Helping scammers profit is not something we can encourage.
    • Second offense:
      • You were already warned: You will receive a CAUTION reputation tag.
      • You already have a CAUTION tag: You will receive a SCAMMER reputation tag.
    • Third offense: You will receive a SCAMMER reputation tag.
    Pretender likes this.
  8. The Great and Tasty

    The Great and Tasty New User

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    I'm marked for the mere act of (supposedly) knowingly trading with a scammer, which even assuming that what I'm accused of knowingly doing (And knowledge and intent is the entire crime here.) for buying back something that I had owned and wanted back.

    So yeah, I'd say I'm still not untrustworthy. I gave away thousands in hats after my unfortunate run in with this site, have recently been scammed but wont report it to THIS authority due to my disagreements with how it's run and what they seem to consider mark worthy.

    Still, despite Kronkan backstabbing me thanks to the guy above this post (Yes you. I know it was you, he told me it was because of what you said to him.) and running after I continued to try to do what was right even at immense cost to myself, I still believe that people like OG, people who are genuinely out there to use people and do wrong DO deserve to be ousted from the community.

    A pity they've decided to throw the sheep in with the wolves, this premise had promise. Too bad it has trumpeting fanboys *COUGH*VENGANZA*COUGH**COUGH*EVERYONETHINKSIT*COUGH* who think that it can do no wrong and empower it even when it makes mistakes rather than encouraging change.
  9. ForteSP

    ForteSP New User

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    I was cautioned because I bought a hat that I wanted from a marked scammer. Honestly, what the heck. Trading is so you can get hats you want. I didn't do it to profit or whatever. I simply wanted a hat for myself and the scammer was the only way to get it.

    I personally think trading with scammers shouldn't be a tag.
  10. Rob

    Rob New User

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    Just so you know, I actually have a very large chunk of your trade history (found it floating around randomly) and I could very well prove you wrong. If I ever see you posting about your innocence again, I will do that.
  11. takethepants

    takethepants New User

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    The whole point is that if the scammer ripped that hat off someone then you are helping the scammer continue his practice. It's not about YOU profiting, it's about allowing the scammer to continue to.

    EDIT: Also, ITT, people who are marked and are butthurt.
  12. ForteSP

    ForteSP New User

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    Not at all. I have a caution tag not a scammer tag. That caution tag has not harmed my trading career at all there is not a . It's not just marked people. It's the fact that a 3rd party community is trying to monitor who we trade with. Not to mention the person I traded with wasn't even a scammer. He was marked for trading with scammers. SteamREP misuses the word scammer.
  13. takethepants

    takethepants New User

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    It's not another community. It's just a collection of communities. Also, if you are actually marked as a scammer for trading with another scammer it means that you did it MULTIPLE times. Meaning either: it's a scammer alt, friend who is helping launder items, or someone who doesn't care, but is aiding the scammer by letting him profit off of stolen/scammed items. If you don't know, then it's no mark. After that it's a caution, then if you keep doing it you're just as bad as the scammer for helping him profit off of the dirty items. You got blood on your hands at that point as well. Also, people can take tags at their own value. A MCT tag might not mean as much as a SR tag to some people.

    Just for some reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiding_and_abetting

  14. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    The rules where never made up for how we liked them. They where build up vs practices we saw in the community, and which needed a answer to stop that.

    I never liked the rule trading with scammers, but I can really understand why its needed. None of us like to apply it, but it happens on occasion, and we observe due notice as posted by Venganza above, so the incidental/accidental one can be put to bed.

    As for communities wanting to keep their servers clean, that is all up to them. We only really require them to run SR plugin on their trade servers if affiliated/associated. That they just do it on all to make it easier.... *shrugs*, it is then a part of the punishment to not be able to play on those communities.

    As for the leagues, afaik, none are excluding scammers for their right to play in them... that some individual servers due to the above don't want them is the scammer's problem. Tbh, I know snelvuur, and he just installed it on all, for there where some scammers active on his play servers, and he got sick and tired of scammers aiming for his players... so he ended that. From what I hear from LZ admins is that they agree, and are glad that they don't have to deal with those anymore. *Shrug* its their choice to run it. We only asked them to run it on their trade server(s) with the banner exchange. That they do on all, is their own policy.

    On policy from SR to affiliate/associate: We only have say in how scammer reports are handled and addressed, and that no scammers are in admin/mod positions where things can get awkward in so many ways. Any other rule that a community has, is all what THEY want. If they want to ban/spank/toddle or anything anybody for anything, that is all up to them.

    Basically, when within the communities that SR supports, scammers aren't welcome to trade. Any additional rule is by that community, and only adds to the severity of a scammer tag, which makes such a tag less wanted by others.

    You might not agree on the rules SR has, but they just became part of the necessity to deal with certain excesses.

    A bunch of communities ban btw also for sharking, which SR doesn't follow in for there is no way to make a general rule about what constitutes exactly sharking (ppl may give a bills for a vintage hat because they actually don't care at that moment, and later with remorse claim sharking etc), and once somebody finds out like a week later or so they don't have original chat etc., to prove they got sharked.
  15. takethepants

    takethepants New User

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    I've obviously supported not banning "sharking" before, but since the new steam release (or is it stil in beta?) it keeps chatlogs of past chat.
  16. DataStorm

    DataStorm Retired Staff

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    steam beta with chat was pushed to clients... but I don't know, how much does it keep... not much, just a few lines... and sharks operate on game servers... thats just in-trade screen not in friends-chat....
  17. Jet Justice

    Jet Justice New User

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    i agree with this guy and i dont agree with anyone regularly its been a few month i think since i put up my pleed to get off my tag cause i was hacked this third party site (i think) is making people get mad (as do i) its kinda a waste of time and most people are getting sick of it
  18. Nobel

    Nobel New User

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    Your appeal is "needs more information" because you have not provided a screenshot of the steam support ticket. looking over your appeal, your "printed version" is probably not acceptable as its in a very bizarre format. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2uo28i8&s=6

    I suggest you upload a corrected screenshot and then your appeal can be resolved.
    VenGanZa likes this.
  19. Jet Justice

    Jet Justice New User

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    its still a steam rep ticket just in a different format its still acceptable if its still a ticket
  20. Thomas Matthias

    Thomas Matthias Retired Staff

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    Login to your support account and take a screenshot of the ticket.